In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond real estate attorney Matthew Lamstein. Matt discusses his commercial real estate practice and reflects back on the Lazer, Aptheker, Rosella & Yedid's combination with Bond - one year later.
In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond real estate attorney Matthew Lamstein. Matt discusses his commercial real estate practice and reflects back on the Lazer, Aptheker, Rosella & Yedid's combination with Bond - one year later.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Cheneykin King. I'm your host, kim Wulf Price. For most of us, our understanding of and connection to the practice of real estate law is residential the purchase and sale of homes. But in the business world, commercial real estate practice is complex and often complicated. It involves everything from financing to ground leasing, development and much more. So on today's episode we're going to talk about this and more with Matt Lamstein. Matt is a member in Bond's Melville, long Island office. Matt practices commercial real estate in our property department and he officially joined Bond on June 1 of last year, the official day for the combination of Bond, chypen King and Laser Epsker, rosella and Yedded, where Matt had been a partner. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us, matt.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:All right. So, as I mentioned, commercial real estate practice and the firm combination, is that okay if those are our topics for today?
Speaker 2:Works for me. Works for me. Plenty to say.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's perfect. I love it. I mean, we've already talked for like 10 or 15 minutes before I hit the record button, so this is good, all right. Well, before we get too much further, i like to start episodes, especially with first time guests, asking if you could tell us a little bit about yourself. I think listeners appreciate knowing a bit about our guests. So let me tell us some about your background undergrad, law, school where you grew up, family, whatever you want to talk about.
Speaker 2:All right. So I grew up on Long Island. I went to Colgate University and Cornell Law School. I tell everybody that the basis of what I am about and how I work has a lot to do with my father. My dad was a depression year baby who really came from poverty and ended up putting himself through college, med school and a pediatric practice And actually and ran his office with my mom.
Speaker 2:If you can remember those days out of the bottom half of our house And what I'm being able to watch my father while he was working out of our house, he taught me two things. One was just an extreme work ethic that you don't get anywhere without, without working, and that was number one. But number two, what he taught me which I think applies to medicine, comply to legal whatever is just sort of having a common sense gut kind of reaction. And in his world he used to get calls at two o'clock in the morning or people used to show up at our house with issues and dealing with babies and children And he was able to take the issue, do the research or whatever, get the understanding and then translate it to the patient so that they understood what was going on but didn't in a way that it wasn't alarming that it was. He had a real street sense And in watching him all those years I sort of took those two components of my dad and have been applying it to what I do on an everyday, between the work and and having just sort of a gut sense on dealing with people. The only thing I always tell clients which hopefully some who may listen to this may won't get it So there's that when he got the call to a clock in the morning, it truly was an emergency.
Speaker 2:That is true, it was a baby, it was a kid here. You know, like last night I did get an email one o'clock in the morning and asking a question about a contract. Luckily there was no health issues, so but anyway that was the basis of where I came from. May sound silly too, but part of the reason why I married my wife because she had that same same work ethic. And the last personal side is she blessed me with two good boys who also in this next generation have a work ethic. So if you didn't get the theme about me, that's my theme, so okay.
Speaker 1:I think that's an excellent theme. An excellent theme. I think it goes well a little bit with your undergrad. So when I first met you, or when we were in the same place, everyone kept saying Matt went to Colgate, matt went to Colgate. You have to meet Matt, because I too went to Colgate for undergrad. There is something about Colgate where people really get excited to say hello, meet each other. There's something about that school, isn't there?
Speaker 2:Yes, there is, and listen to comments that agree 100%. You know it's a great liberal arts school in a town of state. It was a great four years. The people that you meet there you know bright, good, good people Again, great experience.
Speaker 2:I will share with you the one thing, because I know we're going to talk about the bond laser combination. But one of the nice things Bond did after we did combine is they invited us all up to this membership weekend which, frankly, all of us, after months of the negotiation and you know there's a lot of stress to say all of us dreaded it And frankly, we dreaded having to do the weekend. I will tell you it was the best thing that Bond did. And I want to add to because it involves you I'll never forget that Saturday night dinner Tara Primis, who works for me for almost 25 years, pulled me over and said listen, you got to meet this person. You know I think she went to your school, she's great And of course she brings me over to your table And I meet you.
Speaker 2:45 minutes later I'm still at table 14 instead of table 17 and said I got to get back there. But point of the long story is I remember when I went back to the table I was supposed to be at And I said this is why we did it. It's the people and people like you that made it, why I think this combination, why we thought it would be good, and why it really has turned out. It's turned out good. It's all about the people.
Speaker 1:I know I felt like when Tara and I, like, were bonded for life after that meeting, like you know, sitting together that day, and then you and everyone it's it felt like We all already knew each other.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I'll tell you and it's so funny because I'm like you know I could have been, we could have been in the same freshman dorm and known each other for four years, but it was 45. But I felt, i felt the same exact way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was great. I mean, i think it's been really smooth And I love that when I call on one of the projects I'm working on, whoever it is, whether it's Tara or Bill Gartner or whatever the committees I'm working on They're like yeah, i got it. Sure, kim, i'll get the associates together, we'll take care of it. And also, i have to say, the Melville office, commitment to the Wellbeing Committee and winning for your office was outstanding.
Speaker 2:Well, because you know two things well-being. number one and two were very competitive down there And there's no way, especially Tara, who's away this week. there's no way, tara, or we were losing this thing.
Speaker 1:So It was outstanding. I mean, I have to say Lister's like we had some well-being sort of friendly competitions and Melville was 100% participation. Yes, 100%. It was amazing, Amazing. I love that about the office. It's fantastic. So, and I have to say it's that enthusiasm and that team spirit and how engaged everyone was immediately to like let's do this all together And even before, as the combination I think was the final bits of negotiation a year ago, we were doing well, being weak and everybody was still participating in Melville.
Speaker 3:They're like oh, you do these things.
Speaker 1:We're going to take part in it, so it was. It's been really good, so I think that this year has been pretty successful.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, listen, it's been a change Of course Yeah, computers alone.
Speaker 2:Listen, like all good marriages I joke that before, when we were just laser and a new file came in, it was like the dinner table, like Ralph is Bob, a conflict with Sam, and then fine, we're good. Now, listen, it's big firm, we have a bit of administrator stuff to do. We may, yes, but listen, i will say this When Ralph Robin and I were making this, i mean, laser had been a firm for 30 plus years, of which I'd been here for a good part of that And we could have gone on. It was, it has And, by the way, it still is very much the people that are here like a family.
Speaker 2:And when we were looking to find a place to park and marry, there were a number of firms that we talked to and negotiated with And there are a ton of good lawyers, great lawyers, out there.
Speaker 2:So critical was being with a firm that had great lawyers, but as important to us, given the family that we were before, was having the same feel wherever we went And no BS. But one of the things we found is that that decision again, like I said, in that I met you, It's just good people, you're meeting people, which I love, and it sounds silly, but the collegial feeling that you get from being part of it just makes everything so much better, including, by the way, the legal work. I think that if you work at a place where the doors are open, where you're talking or your phone and you're zooming, it, just it makes the product you're putting together for clients that much better. And so that's what, of all the things that's come through this merger, it's that. It's just. It's that same personality that we had at Small Laser is very much what we've found there with Bond.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I could feel that right away with all of you. And you're right, there is something about knowing that you can call someone across the firm and have a friendly conversation, a very intense conversation on a legal topic or just to catch up, and that it feels just comfortable right away. You're right, the work product is even better, and then the fact that you have to work 12, 14 hours someday is even better.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, you spend more time with the people at work, and it's all good.
Speaker 1:Very good. So you said you spent a lot of your career with Laser When you graduated from Cornell. where'd you go from there?
Speaker 2:All right. So my path was. So I graduated from Cornell. It happened at Cornell There was a big contingency of Colgate undergrad Cornell attorneys who went to a big firm that was in all over Connecticut that was very politically connected called Shatshats, rubikof and Cochran. It was at that point like a 120 person firm. I did my summer associate. Fred, let me take a shot, do something different. I did my summer associate there. I loved it and ended up staying and stayed there for almost eight years And I was still young and not married. Two, i had family down here with health issues. But three at that point the Hartford economy was the banks, were the issues of banks And whatever. I could just see things happening And I ended up leaving there and coming back to New York And I worked at a firm in Manhattan for three years before I came out to laser.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. So it's like you know, you're just sort of driving back home very slowly from Canada. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:And I will share with you that in the second stop, the city firm. The one thing that came out of that was my brother-in-law at that time introduced me to my wife. So if it wasn't for stop two I wouldn't have the two good boys I have now. That's right.
Speaker 1:That's very good. Stop two For me it was law school when I swore I would never date anyone I went to law school with And then thanks to the 20th anniversary. So commercial real estate practice. I mentioned at the beginning that many people you know most of us the biggest financial investment people make it's their home, if they purchase a home, and so it's residential real estate, purchase and sale. That's what they think of when they think of real property transactions. But there is a lot more involved, sometimes even in residential transactions, of course. But will you give a general overview of what commercial real estate practice is?
Speaker 2:You're right, there is obviously a big distinction between residential and commercial, although people in many cases take much more risk on the residential. But I'll also say this a lot of the concepts are similar. You know, you're buying real estate, there's financing, there's title On the commercial side and what we do here is, you know, a through Z in commercials. So we do acquisitions, we do sales, we do financings, we do like kind exchanges And then you do within various asset classes of commercial real estate. So a big practice of my group for many years has been in the multifamily world, not just in New York but throughout the country. So we have quite a number of clients that buy, sell, finance, like kind of exchange, multifamily complexes.
Speaker 2:That asset world has changed a little bit over the last few months. A lot having to do with the financing, a lot having to do with that asset class just was going up and up and up And I think there's a bit of a straining out of things But with clients that I know are going to jump back in. But we also do industrial, we do office. I know you would ask me, i think, in one of your notes, about condominiums. We do that as well. So the thing I like about what we do is that it's a wide spectrum. I mean we do a ton of leasing. It's a wide spectrum and yet they're all interconnected to each other.
Speaker 1:Right. And then some of these like while there's the deal itself, then there must be things you have to work on, like if it is a condominium, then like the HOA type fees and all of that. you must have to draft those types of agreements as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, true. So in the condo context, yes, you know, in another, you know I'm doing a development agreement now with a client who hasn't acquired yet but is about to, and there's a whole slew of easements and covenants and restrictions. So within the big spectrum there's a lot of things that funnels down. So it's a lot of different. You know, different works, why I've always enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:And a lot of work with municipalities, And in New York state we like to keep it complicated by having villages, towns, counties.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and listen, i can only speak in Long Island. You know, one of the biggest issues in Long Island and development is there's so many levels of what you need to get through to get an approval on a project. you know, and that's become a big political thing too. You know, recently, obviously, the governor tried coming out with some new laws to get housing more developed in the, and Long Island was one of the ones that was fiercest against what she was proposing. But yes, there's, there's many levels. Frankly, i think too many levels to get it done. But I'll also say this it's been around for how many years. when it always comes in and thinks they're going to change the way that the process works, it's not happening here.
Speaker 1:So I don't see it happening. I don't see it happening in New York, but there are a lot of issues here in Syracuse as well with housing, with the micron potential here and that there needs to be a lot of housing.
Speaker 1:So I think that's the top of mind for New York's governor right now. So when you mentioned all those levels in Long Island, i know there's people who really fiercely fight for green space and other issues in Long Island. It must be pretty interesting the practice there. Is that what drew you to the practice, all these different levels?
Speaker 2:Again, i guess this will speak of me. What actually got me into real estate work was my summer year at the firm up in Connecticut. First of all, the people I work with. I'm a big. it's the people. It's the people.
Speaker 2:Again, i got one theme working people. I loved who I was working with. But I also, from a personality perspective, i always, you know I'm one of those type A. I like seeing a beginning and I like seeing an end in how you get there And also I like seeing a positive finish. Now, this isn't Mr Rogers' neighborhood, so there are plenty of transactions that don't get there to there. But I will tell you this, personality wise, i don't think I could have ever been a litigator, because anything that takes more than blank, you know, whatever, and unfortunately, given the economy, what's happened, we've had one or two transactions that have gone into litigation And it's amazing to me how slow the process is and how you don't get to an end game. And then it's just so. Again, i went into real estate with the people. It was doing something positive to get to an end game and getting to that end game as quickly as you could get to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fantastic. It also very good for clients. Yes, exactly Because.
Speaker 2:by the way, there's nothing worse than transaction that drags, because as soon as it drags, things crop up, you don't know which way it's going. It's like. That's why you always have to. You have to push from. You know, from day one you got to keep pushing things out.
Speaker 1:That's right, and I don't know that people, that listeners would know like there is a sense that you do have to push these things. don't get on a conveyor belt and just move along.
Speaker 2:Right. And then it's surprising because there are plenty of not clients but also even other lawyers that just they take a while, they'll send it out. But to me, you know, we get a call. we got a call on Thursday for a contract to go. It was out on Friday, you know. granted, there was two days. I'm calling the person to keep things moving, to keep the momentum, because issues only crop up when things drag And but it takes someone to to push it. There are plenty of people that just it'll, it'll happen when it happens, and in the world that I live in that's not a good thing.
Speaker 1:No, it seems like that would just make people nitpick and make things kind of go maybe a little bit off the path that they're supposed to Yes, for sure. So in law school, after you did that summer, did you start taking real estate classes, or had you already shown some interest in it in law school?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, actually no, with the Sun. Who's in law school? I always have this conversation Law school doesn't. It is so much different than becoming, as you know, a practicing lawyer. So I may have taken two real estate classes, but it's all about practical doing and watching and listening to older attorneys and going that path, and and now I've been doing it for 35 years, that's been my education. So, yes, law school, yeah, it took maybe two classes, but that was it.
Speaker 1:It's so funny. I mean, everyone says this, but it's kind of true. It just teaches you to problem solve like a lawyer. Like a lawyer, understand how to read the things in front of you, because they're not the village, town, county, state, rules, laws, zoning none of it's clear.
Speaker 2:Right? No, you're right, there's never a black and white. But let me listen, i don't want to just. Law school teaches how to think, how to think as a lawyer, but you learn by practicing, yeah.
Speaker 1:Exactly. It does make you feel like in law school, that things are very much where we do this and this and then this happens, which is never what actually happens.
Speaker 2:Right, right So. So the weekends with my son, who's just finished his second year, having those, those conversations well, you know the case, input blah, blah versus whatever I said. Okay, right here let me tell you what happens now in my world.
Speaker 1:So, exactly what really happens.
Speaker 2:And so.
Speaker 1:I think it's a big shock. Well, in the fall, we're going to bring in, you know, our 17 new law clerks, and it takes a little bit of time with them to sort of say like yes, it's a little bit of a joke.
Speaker 2:Little bit different.
Speaker 1:So you talked about some of your multifamily projects and you've done work for condominium complexes. It seems that there is everything from financing the actual acquisition of the property, land use, zoning, all these things. we've talked about so many layers to get a deal to closing. Will you talk about some of the processes or places where you get involved in a deal or whatever type of deal you'd like to talk about, just to give people a little bit of context?
Speaker 2:Right, i'll say this you know, when I think about like who, my top whatever and usually it's longevity It's people that I've started with from years ago that brought me into a deal on a term sheet. You know right at the beginning, and often lawyers don't get in that early. I think about two or three people in particular that they brought me in and this was how many years ago and you know negotiating and help that on an LOY. You have to be careful because you don't want to be overly, as a lawyer, aggressive because you want the deals got to happen. But often clients make mistakes in those early stages because they either give up something or don't realize they're giving up something when it's an LOY. And then when you get to a contract stage, all of a sudden the other side saying well, no, you did, this is what you agreed to in the LOY.
Speaker 1:Is it LOY? is a letter of intent.
Speaker 2:Yes, i'm sorry, your letter attendant term sheet, sorry. Yes, the letter attendant term sheet, which is, you know, generally the basic business terms and, depending on if a broker is involved or not involved, it has some real detail or not. And on bigger deals, i always think it's a great idea to get the attorney involved early, because there are things in the in the L? O Y term sheet that a business person may not think of that's going to then come up in the contract, and so that's what I have. An L? O Y then converts a contract of sale and, depending on what state you're in and that makes a difference One or the other side usually is the person who drafts the contract. And then it's the steps of due diligence and where you help out with title and survey this financing and loan docs And then ultimately a closing. You know which, in this day and age.
Speaker 2:That's dramatically changed since when I first started. It's somewhat dramatically changed since COVID, because it's rare that you really have sit down closings anymore. So everything's done by email, through the title company, through wires, although I will say this, i in many cases I found that sitting in a conference room with everyone with the documents of issues came up beginning it, done the whole email by escrow closing. Everyone thinks maybe it's easier, but at the end of the day often it's not. There's just a lot to get done and you don't get a response back on an email on an issue and and then you have to hit their time, all that kind of stuff. But that's what we do. It's from a to Z and then and then post closing or in some cases we're doing the leasing work that that follows the, you know, the acquisition. So that's sort of the A to Z of what, what we do in an ideal.
Speaker 1:Even when you say this, I think of the closing binder, like I think of all my friends who did that work. Right, they go have their closing binders. They'd be going into a room and it's. It does seem like that would be easier than maybe missing an email sometimes.
Speaker 2:Not that people miss them, but you know like chasing people down for it instead of just asking and responding.
Speaker 2:And again back to the theme of people, when you know when issues come up at a closing table as opposed to when you're doing it by email. It's a lot different when I'm looking you, i to I, and here's the issue and how we're going to work it out or not work it out and be there and get it done And it's just that and listen. It's the way the world, you know. That's not changing. I get it, but there are times I've been negotiating for the last three months a contract for a major, major development deal And I keep telling the client we need to get into the, into a room, you know, go face to face, because it's just too easy to exchange and then not get a real resolution. We need to get in there, get a final resolution, get the things signed again, timing, timing, timing and moving it along. So it's back to, i still think, and the world and what we do face to face and being with the people, but really does make a difference in many cases.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, and it seems like that's a way of things are going too long to maybe. Okay, let's all get together.
Speaker 2:This is taking Exactly exactly, but getting a conference room lock the door, we're not getting down until the thing gets done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, but it has to be really rewarding to drive through a community, whether it's your own or one nearby, and to see how your work and commercial real estate impacts how people live and work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so, it's true and it's funny. So that first firm I worked at one of my mentors who was one of the two partners of the real estate group. His requirement was that you needed to get into your car and go look at every property that you were dealing with because he said that to get title survey. All that may, all important, but you really need to see what you're working on to understand what the deal is about.
Speaker 2:Now, of course, in my world I would love to be going to Savannah, georgia, austin, texas, but the legal work here, you know. So it's a different world. But I will say, even around here in Long Island or in Manhattan, you know, i have to stop myself when I'm driving with my wife on weekends to say I closed that deal. you know, like she really cares, i closed that deal A month and a half ago and we just got the new deal on the property next door. It is fun because, again back to that mentality of a beginning and end, and the real end is that you help get a deal to a, you know, any property to a certain place, and it's fun to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you actually physically get to see it. If it's a straight financial deal, like if people are doing a merger, that you might not see. But in commercial real estate you actually get to see like that building right there, that complex.
Speaker 2:Brick and mortar. Brick and mortar.
Speaker 1:Yes, It's really that's what you could tell, maybe that I was a litigator. So I'm like what's that like? Please explain.
Speaker 2:Yes, i can. Closing binder. Closing statement. What was that?
Speaker 1:I don't. Please tell me what are these things Well before we sign off. Since you have a second year law student at your house, do you have any advice that you would give for a new attorney or student considering commercial real estate practice?
Speaker 2:Listen, whether it's commercial real estate or just being a lawyer, i mean it's work, you got to work. We're in a service industry. People expect things from us and you'll always hear lawyers are getting paid X, y, z, they expect. But it's a service industry And one of the things I remember from that Cornell Law School was one of my professors who said anyone calls you, you either need to call them back within a short period of time or email. I forget. If there was emails back, then I'm updating myself or at least send a message to say I'll get back to you as soon as possible. So and that's part of the service.
Speaker 2:The other thing is, again, it's all about people you know and so connecting with people in the law firm outside the law firm. I won't get into the potential controversial topic of working remotely, but I guess you could tell what my opinion is. I just think being with again, whether it's with clients as or as a young associate, or I'll talk about my group Pat Harper, who's been with me, leaving this week after 22 years. Jessica, who's been with me almost 20,. Tara, 25 years. We work to get, we're here all the time, we work together again that open door, it's just being with each and being able to bounce things off each other. So again, i guess the two things work hard and just engulf yourself with the people, whether it's the firm or if it's a DA office or and clients. That's what will make you successful.
Speaker 1:And I think it's what will also make you enjoy it.
Speaker 2:True, true, yeah, and I'll tell you one last thing I'll share. Is that one of the nice things about bond and the combination? So, you know, one of the reasons I think that we were it was done from our end is that laser was a transactional firm and bond didn't have that, that transactional component, especially. You know, down here, great labor, great school, great hospital, and so what. One of the things I was excited about in the merger that really has now come to pass over the last five, six months is that our labor, you know, lou and Dan and Monica. They've now brought me into transactional work for a lot of their clients And it's fun.
Speaker 2:You know, i get a high off of this stuff. It's working with different people that aren't necessarily in the real estate world but are doing real estate transactions, and it's being with different people. I'm working now with a number of schools on transactions and on leasing and all that, and I'm just meeting a whole slew of people that I probably would never have met if it wasn't for the fact that we combined, and I find that exciting for me personally, for the firm and for bond. Part of why we did this was to, you know, make that connection, and I'm seeing it now every if I told you the three calls this afternoon, it's all related to three schools that are and I just I find that fun and exciting And meeting just a great new slew of people, both again in bond and their clients. So to me it's what gets me up in the morning.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think it's fantastic And it is like to see it. Within less than a year, it was already starting to like cook the right way And it's cooking.
Speaker 2:And we had a couple of these. Just we'll meet internally for dinner, which was great we met. But you know, you just know it just has you have to give it time And I will tell you I'm surprised how quickly it has happened and it's gaining momentum And again, it's fun and I'm meeting a whole new group of people.
Speaker 2:So it's sort of industry with higher ed and schools and yes, which have, by the way, different goals, different perspectives than one of my typical clients. that's acquiring a piece of that's their business. This is part of their business. on the but an critical part, i mean some of the millions of dollars worth of real estate assets and deal with different kind of issues, although at the same time, it's getting back to the basics of real estate 101 and what I've been doing for 35 years. So it's, it's fun. I really did that part. I'm loving it. I just I hope and I expect it's going to just keep continuing that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i'm sure it will. I think that's fantastic And all like. I think that the folks on the other side feel the same way And they're glad that that we can now do the work is bond. Right, i can work with you And I think it's a fantastic thing. Well, I need to tell you one thing You are the first fellow Colgate alum I've had on the podcast. So they can't believe it.
Speaker 2:I know that is pretty crazy. I hope, though, then now we're going to continue it on. So when's the next Colgate person?
Speaker 1:I know I have to like say, like, who will be next from Colgate? Maybe this is a shout out to the president, which likes to be on the podcast.
Speaker 2:There you go, perfect, perfect.
Speaker 1:Well, matt, i really, from the moment I met you, i've appreciated working with you and getting to know you and that team down in Melville. So thanks for joining the podcast And I hope you'll come back again to talk about some of your projects and maybe a little bit more specific. you know some of the things that are happening.
Speaker 2:We'll do, and let me see if feeling is mutual, not just from the team but personally. So thank you for having me and enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks you too.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm or have a question for a future topic, please email us at LegallyBondpskcom. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well.
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