In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond school law attorney Mia DeLane-Gurley. Mia talks about her path to Bond, including her most recent role with the New York City Department of Education, and discusses her extensive experience working to support students with disabilities.
In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond school law attorney Mia DeLane-Gurley. Mia talks about her path to Bond, including her most recent role with the New York City Department of Education, and discusses her extensive experience working to support students with disabilities.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Shannigan King. I'm your host, kim Walth Price. On today's episode we'll be talking with Mia Delaine Gurley, a senior counsel in Bond's Garden City, long Island office. We have practice in our school law practice group, which is part of our labor department. Hi, mia, so good to see you again. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Hi Kim, so happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for joining us today and working with the Wild Summer Scheduling which, of course, I was even late to recording the podcast. So thank you very much for being patient today. It was great we finally met in person earlier this summer at the school law attorney's annual meeting in Lake George. We had beautiful rooms out on the farthest end of the first we did, we did, but the best part was meeting you.
Speaker 2:So I do it all over again it was great meeting you in person.
Speaker 1:Thank you, yeah, it was great. I was actually on the phone saying, oh, I'm going to change my room, and then I was like, oh no, I'm not anymore. Bye, I see, mia, bye.
Speaker 2:It was great, it was such a good program as well. It was really great. It really was. It was a great program. Your presentation was great Engaging. It was wonderful.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Thanks so much. Thank you. Well, I mentioned you practice in the school law practice group and part of your practice focuses on special education law. Is that right? That's right, Kim. So we're going to discuss some other things, but do you mind if a bulk of our conversation is on school law and special ed?
Speaker 2:I do not mind at all.
Speaker 1:Thank you Great. Maybe we'll have to talk a little bit about transitioning to bond and working in school law generally in the lake. We'll make it a whole conversation and let people learn a little bit more about you.
Speaker 1:So it's a bit of a tradition on the podcast to start a conversation with background on the guests, especially the first time they join us on the podcast so do you mind telling us a little bit about your background either, where you're from, where you go to school, law school, family, where you grew up, whatever you think works to kind of give a little background on you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I like to say that I was born and raised in Brooklyn, specifically Bentonhurst, brooklyn, because I'm a Brooklyn girl at heart and most of my family still live in Brooklyn, although I did move to New Jersey in the fifth grade. After graduating from high school, I attended Hampton University in Virginia and then Albany Law School. I am the mother of three. I had my first child at the beginning of my third and final year of law school, and my second, yeah just after being admitted to the bar. And I have a third child, my son, who's 16 and entering his junior year. And I also have a bonus son who is 28 years old. I got the privilege of being able to call him my stepson when I married my husband almost 20 years ago, and my entire career to date has been in the field of special education law, so I'm so excited to speak with you today about it.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic and you mentioned that's been your entire career. First, I have to say I love the podcast because I don't know how we spent so much time together and I didn't realize you went to Albany Law. I always learned something about people that I've had a chance to speak with before, but you didn't start your legal career at bond, so can you tell us a little bit about your earlier career and maybe your path to bond?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. After graduating from law school, I joined a small law firm in Fishkill in New York that represented students with disabilities and their families in special education matters, trust in the states matters and guardianship matters. After leaving that firm, I joined the New York City Department of Education, where I worked for about 15 and a half years. I started at the New York City Department of Education as an attorney focused on special education litigation, which meant defending the department against special education claims. I then took a managing attorney position where I managed the pre litigation stage of special education litigation. And then I took a director position where I managed some post litigation matters for New York City Department of Education.
Speaker 2:And then, following that position, I took on an executive director of the committees on special education position where I managed their 10 CSEs in the New York City Department of Education, which also encompasses the CPSCs and I realize I'm using acronyms, so CSEs are committees on special education, cpscs are committees on preschool special education and they are charged with being responsible for the identification, evaluation, ip development and placement of students with disabilities at the preschool level and at the school age level, and in that role we focused on kids who were not attending school.
Speaker 2:They were either attending charter schools, procural schools, private schools or state approved private schools. And then my final position with the Department of Education New York City was as the senior executive director of policy strategy and systems, where I oversaw a policy team that worked with both internal external stakeholders to develop special education policy for New York City Department of Education as a whole but related to special education, and it ran the gamut. It supported both students in the school age level at their preschool level, whether they were in public school, whether they were in private school, charter school, et cetera. And then after that I joined Bond.
Speaker 1:That's great, and so maybe that was it Candice Gomez, who you knew, who said hey, why don't you think about coming to Bond? Is that how we sort of started that conversation?
Speaker 2:That's how it started. I joined Bond in February of 2023 after connecting on LinkedIn with Candice Gomez, who's a member here in our garden city office.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. So you were at just this timey little school district for a long time. I mean, like the New York City Department of Education, like I can't, that is its own is. It must be one of the top five largest school districts in the country, Something along that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it might be the largest, but it's, it was definitely. It was a learning experience, it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1:It's pretty amazing. So you're in the garden city office in Long Island, now up on the office itself. Does a lot of municipal and schoolwork, don't they? They do.
Speaker 2:That's right, Kim.
Speaker 1:That's good. It gives me with other people who are practicing in the area, which must be a great way to collaborate more together.
Speaker 2:It's perfect. It's perfect and just learning from everyone and having thought partners is always is always a good thing.
Speaker 1:Have you had the chance to meet? I don't think there's many Albany Law alum in our Garden City office but we have several at the firm. Have you had the chance to meet any of the other Albany Law alum at Bond yet?
Speaker 2:Not yet, but Jessica Moller, who's a member here in the Garden City office, I learned is an Albany Law alum. So, she's one that I've connected with so far. Looking forward to meeting with my other fellow alumni.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. See, I didn't know that about Jess. I just like always, like Jess is the Garden City office to me right? So I think like, oh, she must have got to a school downstate. I love this, All right. Well, so you practice in our school law practice group and we were just talking about law school. So when you were in law school, did you even know being a school law attorney was sort of an option that lawyers could do? That's a practice area where you could practice.
Speaker 2:I did, and that's actually where it all began. I knew school law was an option after joining the Civil Rights and Disabilities Law Project and my second year of law school. So, as a member of that project, I learned that disability rights are civil rights, ranging from accessing a bus to voting to entering a building, and I was essentially fascinated by that area of the law.
Speaker 1:So is that what drew you to the practice then and things you learned during your second year of law school, that idea of sort of helping people gain access or ensuring that the access given is what sort of needed?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's what did it. I also had the opportunity to work with and for a brilliant mentor, my former law school professor, bridget Burke, and I had the opportunity to work with one student in particular at the Civil Rights and Disabilities Law Project, who really solidified my interest in school law, specifically in the area of special education, and shaped my overall approach to this work, as I was able to also work with the student's family, the school district's attorney at the time and a hearing officer, where I just learned so much about the nuances in special education law and how you have the ability to see things with so many different angles, different lenses, and it really shaped and formed my interest in this area of the law.
Speaker 1:It seems like so much more of a. I don't know if it's holistic, but when you're working in the area, a lot of times we're just doing a direct transaction or a direct. But you talked about how the family, the teachers, the school district, like it's many more parties, individuals involved to sort of create the solution.
Speaker 2:That's right. There are definitely layers to it and we go through the layers when I'm working with fond clients. But in the end we're familiar with the law and we advise our clients accordingly. But we go through the layers and make sure we're not missing anything.
Speaker 1:That's great, all right. Well, so I think listeners will not necessarily know how much the practice of school law covers. Can you give us just like a little overview of, when we say school law, what it might be that we mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the best way to describe school law is that it encompasses the legal rights and responsibilities of public school districts and independent schools, their boards and their staff related to governance, operations and then, ultimately, education of students. So that's kind of school law in a nutshell, and then all of those different areas related to governance, operation and education. They have their parts that go on and on, but that's kind of it in a nutshell.
Speaker 1:And that's great. And at Bond and I hope you've had the chance I think you've met some of the folks, but our school law practice group at Bond is across New York state isn't it?
Speaker 2:That's right, kim. It's fascinating. When I was joining Bond I said, wow, bond goes from New York City, long Island, the Capital Region and the Mid-Hutton Region, then to Central New York, mohawk Valley, the North Country, the Southern Tier, western New York and the Finger Lakes. Bond is all across New York state. It's pretty fascinating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and those school districts are all so different. While the law is the same, the school districts are so different. Right, they really are, they really are. And none is quite like the New York City Department of Education, I'm sure, being so huge right, just having more students there than all the rest of the districts in the state probably added together.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and while the issues are the same, they're unique to each district in its own way and we support them accordingly. But it's a fascinating area of work to be in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they are kind of their own ecosystem, like everything from supplier side issues and bringing in the supplies needed to run the school to HR issues, of course, because of so many people, some of which may be true old school labor as we think of it here, which would be union issues. Then there's the maintenance team in keeping things safe and shutting down when you need to shut down and of course, then the main purpose, which is educating the students, is that sort of broad range of what happens. Is that what keeps the work interesting to you?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. There's so much that goes into managing a school district and the legal intricacies that districts face on every level, and so you learn something. I learned something new every day, and having the ability here at Bond to tap into the attorney resources to support districts across the range of issues they the districts our clients face, has been an absolute privilege to me in supporting clients, but it's what keeps the work so fascinating and interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's amazing because school districts may even have their mascot and they want copyright or trademark or other protection or they're changing the name or all of those other pieces, absolutely Even IP work, and then just really so much goes into it and then people trying to use that when they shouldn't and then we have to say I'm sorry, you can't use that. That does help Longtea, yeah yeah. And when you also get to work with superintendents and principals and school boards, because the budget votes and the school board votes are also things that districts come to their school law attorneys to discuss, correct.
Speaker 2:That's right, Kim, and since joining Bond I have had the opportunity to work with superintendents, principal, school boards, but also with educational administrators, special education teachers, psychologists and other educational professionals. But I've seen that working with school boards is an integral part of the work we do with Bond school district clients.
Speaker 1:That's great. So you mentioned that before you came to Bond you were the senior executive director of policy strategy and systems for the New York City Department of Education, or DOE. That means to us we would say you were in-house right, you were in the district. Having that experience from a school district perspective is that helpful to you, do you think, when understanding the issues clients are facing?
Speaker 2:Definitely, working for such a large school district allowed me to see so many facets in the area of special education and my time with the DOE allowed me to work with and learn from so many majoring educational professionals who were committed to supporting students with disabilities and their families that now, working with districts of all sizes and educational professionals and districts throughout New York State, it really affords me the ability to truly understand the issues that bonds clients are facing, even if on a smaller scale, and to leverage my experience and support and clients to resolve the issues they may be facing. So I'm able to bring that experience right along with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's amazing. What I love about, you know, the practice group itself is everyone brings a different experience in. Some people practice school at other firms. I know we're bringing in, you know, some newer folks who are teachers before law school. You know there's such a wide variety of experiences that you all bring that. Then having each other gives you the power to share that for all the clients.
Speaker 2:That's right, it's pretty neat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mentioned that you practice school generally and that special education lies, something that's been a big part of your career and remains a big part of your practice. Can you talk a bit about what we mean when we say special education law, because I'm not sure listeners would particularly know? But what do we mean under that umbrella?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so special education law ensures that children with disabilities are provided with a free and appropriate public education and free, appropriate public education has an acronym FAPE, and that encompasses so many different things, but primarily ensuring that these students are afforded access to the general education curriculum, that they are provided with appropriate instruction and related services to support their needs in a classroom, and that their parents are also afforded certain rights so that they are given the information that they need to ensure their child's education, from understanding the evaluation process to understanding the placement process, to knowing what their procedural safeguards are and their due process rights. But it ensures making sure that these children are treated equally and given proper access under the law.
Speaker 1:And it can be just such a wide variety, right? It could be a student who needs one small intervention or additional service to students who need much more comprehensive services and interventions.
Speaker 2:Is that right? That's right. It ranges and each student is required to build that individually under, you know, the special education law umbrella. It can't be a cookie cutter approach when you're serving these students. They have to be looked at individually and have individualized programs developed to meet their needs and that's the definition of equity right.
Speaker 1:That is Meet everybody where they are to give them that playing field that they need. So I know you mentioned acronyms and I know that that's just really a cornerstone of education. I feel like there's so many different acronyms and I think I heard you say IEP earlier when you were talking, and I think you're talking about how you know each student is met where they are and a plan is built. I think that's a little bit of what IEP is, but can you explain that acronym and tell us what an IEP is?
Speaker 2:Yes, so the IEP is an individualized education program and it's a written document that memorializes the collaboration between parents and members of a school district also known as our committee on special education for school-aged students or committee on pre-school special education for pre-school students to develop an educational plan that recommends special education in the form of specially designed instruction and related services for students with a disability that will provide them with that FAPE, which is access to appropriate services and instruction in their school environment.
Speaker 1:Is that an annual process and are the? Is it teachers, parents and others in the district?
Speaker 2:Yes, so the purpose of the IEP is to describe a student's individual needs and to document their special education and related services to meet those unique needs, and the committees, either pre-school or the school age, must meet at least once a year to review a student's progress towards their annual goals during the past year and to recommend an appropriate program for the upcoming year.
Speaker 2:And we've seen that reviewing and revising a child's IEP is a critical step in the IEP process because the needs of a student with a disability change during the year and for some students with disabilities it may warrant frequent reviews in one year, and so the members of the committee are extremely important under the law and the family is considered a member.
Speaker 2:Parents of a student with a disability are considered members of our committees on special education and committees on pre-school special education, and those members have to include not less than one general education teacher of the child, a special education teacher of the child or, where appropriate at times it may be not less than one special education provider of the child.
Speaker 2:You also want to have a district representative at these meetings who is qualified to provide or supervise the provision of specially designed instruction to meet the unique needs of children with disabilities. They should also be knowledgeable about the general education curriculum and knowledgeable about the availability of district resources. Many times these students, especially at the initial stage, are coming in with brand new assessments, and so you have to have an individual who can interpret the instructional implication of those assessment results. At these meetings, and then at the discretion of the parent or the district, other individuals who have knowledge or special expertise regarding the child, including their related service providers, should be invited as appropriate. And then there are times when appropriate to invite the child, and so that encompasses our committee membership, and it's truly important to make sure we have the right people at the table to discuss a student and their needs.
Speaker 1:When you said service providers, that could be medical care individuals involved in their medical care. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:That's correct. So service providers could range from children receiving related services so speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy. But then for our students who do have medical needs, oftentimes we will invite someone working with them on their medical needs. We will also invite at those times a district physician to participate at the IEP meeting to discuss a student's medical needs and how their needs can be met in a school building.
Speaker 1:That just seems like, while critically important, also a little bit more complicated than just getting a group of people together to have a conversation, because there's a lot of moving parts and different pieces and students grow and develop and change. So it makes sense that sometimes those meetings may have to happen a bit more frequently, as you mentioned. So special education law is an area where there's a lot of federal and state laws that come into play the laws that generally cover school districts, but also some on special ed in particular. What are some of the things that districts have to call and get some advice on? Is it how they set certain programs up? It seems like it could be anything. If you're building a new building, we have to make sure you're compliant to get sinks for children in wheelchairs. I mean, it's pretty. We say special education law. Those meetings are critically important. It's much bigger than that, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It really is, and there are many laws that cover the obligations of school districts. If we begin with federal laws, there's the Americans with Disabilities Act and a lot of people hear that and they immediately think of maybe buildings and access. But overall that's another acronym, the ADA. It protects individuals with disabilities from and it prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability, whether it's related to employment, and it applies to state and local governments, public accommodations facilities, transportation and telecommunications. So while you might think, oh, that's something that happens outside of a school building, school districts, with employees, with students, with parents coming into the building, there are accommodations that are required under the ADA.
Speaker 2:Another federal law is Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. And Section 504 requires that school districts provide, again that free, appropriate public education, which includes access to eligible students in their jurisdictions who have a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities. And so this differs from the IEP and that's the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act that covers the IEP. But in Section 504, children are given a 504 plan and after an evaluation, a team a 504 team determines whether they have a physical or mental impairment that requires some accommodations to ensure that they have access to level the playing field to your earlier point to services in the district. And then the IDEA, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.
Speaker 2:That's a federal law that makes again available a free and appropriate public education to eligible children with disabilities from birth to age 21. At an ensured special education and related services to those children are made available. And so the birth to age 21 is a huge range, but there's different sections of the IDEA. To qualify for special education and related services under CART B, a student must be between the ages of three and 21, and they meet the definition of one or more disability categories. But then you also have children who are just born and might be immediately identified as having a disability up to age two, and they're covered under Part C and they generally receive early intervention services. So their vast federal laws is also FERPA. And that just gets into protecting the privacy rights of student education records. That's another big one for school districts and something that they have to keep in mind when maintaining and sharing student records.
Speaker 1:That was the one in higher education, because I was at a law school that I would have to say over and over to parents. I actually can't speak to you about this. Your student is over 21.
Speaker 2:Like you're specific Right Now and it's so important and it's another acronym that I said, but it stands for the Family, educational Rights and Privacy Act. But it's another important federal law that's really important for our school district clients to keep in mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the different the types of whether it's a 504 or whatever it might might be, or how districts and schools and individuals, classrooms, have to react. It could be everything from a food allergy to Mobility issues, to I'm requiring push-in services, like you mentioned speech therapy and other things, for it's a just a wide gamut and one student could have five of those things or One of those things, and that's where understanding the laws and the way everything interacts together is so important for school districts, isn't it?
Speaker 2:That's right. It can vary and each student is looked at individually. And a student that is eligible under section 504, because they have analogy To your point, may have another need that requires a development of an IEP. And so school districts, you know, we advise them all the time to make sure to look at those layers, the layers that I mentioned earlier, and figure out whether we're meeting the student through their, their differing needs on on multiple layers, and Developing a plan accordingly to ensure that they're provided with that free and appropriate education.
Speaker 1:It's interesting like with as, speaking as a food allergy parent, one of the things is sometimes in science classes, m&m's or Skittles or things want to be used for, but you can't always use those in a Class if there's a red dye or a nut or a milk or some other allergy. So it it is really down to like One assignment in a class or one project and all of these things. Each one of them has to be considered for students.
Speaker 2:That's absolutely right and it has to be documented and Created in a document that captures students needs, what to do in the event that there is an exposure for you know, using the algae example and then making sure that all the teachers and other professionals working with the students in a school building, even in the lunch room, are familiar with the students needs. It's critically important for for school districts.
Speaker 1:And of course we have New York State Ed too, not to believe out the federal laws, and I think for me at the firm the impact of state Ed came really into play during the pandemic and everything that came out. But there's also rules, regulations and policies from the New York State Department of Education as well, right, that's right.
Speaker 2:There are number of state laws and regulations related to special education and students with disabilities. But if we begin with article 89 of New York State Education Law, you know sections is 4401 through 44010 relate to the requirements and procedures for the education of students with disabilities. We also have article 81 of New York State Education Law which covers section 4001 through 4006, related to the education of children residing in child care institutions. Part 200 of the regulations of the commissioner is Related to special education programs and services for students with disabilities. There's also a part 201 of the regulations of the commissioner which is related to the procedural safeguards for students with disabilities subject to discipline.
Speaker 2:So these are the four primary areas that I will spend a lot of time in, and while Many school districts and independent schools are familiar with part 200 and 201, there's so much in the New York State Education Law, the article 89 and 81, that relate to Procedures for students with disabilities and what has to happen there, and so my responsibility to be abreast of all the changes in the law, especially, you know, tied to the pandemic. There were so many changes and different things that changed timelines and things like that became an issue, which are Regulated by the state. But we recognize that due to COVID-19 certain timelines, it was virtually impossible to meet some of that.
Speaker 1:Hey, absolutely, because some of the way services were provided could no longer be Provided, because that's right public health emergency.
Speaker 2:That's right, and so it was in school districts and working with families, of just an integral part of ensuring families had the information that they needed, could make the decisions that they needed to make about their children, and school districts work through those families to arrange For services as appropriate, even via remote learning, which became obviously a big thing. That really wasn't regulated prior to 2020, but now there's New York. Education Law includes and compasses definitions for all of this, the new normal, which now includes, you know, the possibility of learning Remotely in the state. You know snow days was a big thing. There's no, really no need to have a snow day anymore, because you can technically say kids will learn virtually and so that that's something. That's that's new. But back to state. I just trying to stay ahead of how things are evolving.
Speaker 1:Those snow days. That comes down to traditional labor and union practice and whether was. I think that's a different, but so do you see. I mean we've had to address some of the things that occurred during the pandemic, like remote learning and all those things. But Overall, for school districts are such a critical sector of our communities from what you're seeing our operations sort of a little bit more in a post pandemic place, you know activities are happening, services are being provided in what we would consider more of a traditional way, more in person, that's is that flow kind of coming back closer to what we're used to.
Speaker 2:I think so. I think so, and. But while school district operations are largely in a post pandemic place, many students that I've, you know, seen have returned to school with increased social and emotional needs, including feelings of anxiety, fear, stress, withdrawal and or unprepared to self manage new or exacerbated behaviors after being home for such a period of time. And the heightened social and emotional needs of students following the pandemic has and may continue to result in increased referrals to special education. So that's where I'm seeing it, and so you know. Schools are working to adapt and to meet students where they are and build capacity around social emotional learning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's an excellent point. I think that's actually one for all of us in all sectors, not just kids in school, but certainly an issue that for special education law and education law generally something that has to be considered.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it's so important. But our school districts are up to the task and they are working with families and students and even staff to meet their needs after return to in-person learning.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for joining us, BA. Thanks for taking the time to explain that. It must be incredibly interesting and rewarding work. I hope you'll come back again and join us on the podcast, maybe talk about some developments or update us on school law or special education law and things that are important to our school districts here in New York. Can we maybe get you to come back again?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, kim. It would be my pleasure. Thank you for having me today, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at LegallyBondpskcom. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond, where our podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well.
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