In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim talks with Bond litigation attorney Collin Carr. Collin talks about his litigation practice as a fourth-year associate and the importance of pro bono work.
In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim talks with Bond litigation attorney Collin Carr. Collin talks about his litigation practice as a fourth-year associate and the importance of pro bono work.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Shennequin King. I'm your host, kim Wolf Price. In this episode we're speaking with Colin Carr, an associate in Bond Syracuse office who practices in our litigation department. Welcome to the podcast, colin. Thanks for taking the time.
Speaker 2:Of course, Kim. This is really exciting. I'm an avid podcast listener, so it's kind of cool to finally be on one.
Speaker 1:It's exciting. That's great. Well, it's exciting for me because I admit and I've said this before I love having folks who I worked with when they were students on the podcast now that they're practicing attorneys, and my colleagues, so it's really fun to have you on the podcast Today. I'd like to hear about your litigation practice, why you chose this practice area, and it would also be great to spend some time talking about your pro bono work, because I know for both of us, that's something that's important to our legal career. Does that sound like a plan?
Speaker 2:It does Sounds good.
Speaker 1:Okay, great, all right. Well, before we get too far into the conversation, it's a thing we kind of do on the podcast, which is start with a few moments talking about your background, so that the listeners can get to know you. So you can cover whatever you'd like where you grew up, undergrad school, what you were involved in a law school, families, hobbies, whatever you'd like to talk about.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, no. I grew up in a very rural village called Clyde in upstate New York. It's north of the Finger Lakes. If you're on the Thruway on 90, where Delago is, it's that exit right there Clyde Waterloo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, exactly Clyde Waterloo, and so we're north of the Thruway. It was a very rural community. I think I graduated with probably 55 other classmates in high school, so everybody knew everyone and everyone's family and whatnot, and I went to undergrad at SUNY Oswego, which was just about 45 minutes east of Clyde on the shoreline of Lake Ontario.
Speaker 2:Elma Mater of El Roker and others, Exactly yeah yeah, he came, I think, a few times while I was there and he did his show, so he definitely has a presence on campus. So it's kind of cool when he shows up. You definitely know, because everyone's very energetic. But I studied political science and public justice for my two majors. I realized I had a knack for research and writing and communicating complex ideas, and so law school was the next natural step for me in sticking with my staying local mindset. I went to Syracuse University College of Law. I started 2017 and graduated in 2020. So I was a pandemic class law graduate. So that's my background. While at law school, I was a form and accuracy editor on the Syracuse Law Review, so I got intimately familiar with the Blue Book and all the citation rules for those who are an attorneys who are listening.
Speaker 2:The Blue Book is the guide for how to cite legal documents in authorities.
Speaker 2:And it's unnecessarily complex. So I became an expert in that. I was a teaching assistant for the vice dean of the law school, keith Bybee. He has an undergraduate class that would come to the law school. It was kind of an introduction to law, legal theory, and so I was able to be a TA for them. It was a large class Every Friday. It was broken down into smaller groups and the TAs would be the teacher of each of those groups. So I was able to get some mentoring experience, some teaching experience, and it actually helped, I think, with my legal career. Those are two skills that are important You're teaching and mentoring clients on the law and so I was able to hone in on my skill of mentoring essentially at a very early stage. And I also was an RA, a research assistant, for Professor Lauren Goulden. Oh, favorites.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it was great. You know she's a great professor to work for. She's very knowledgeable. I still stay in touch with her and see her on occasion, and so there was a nice relationship to form. That's quickly just a brief summary of who I am and how I became an attorney.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic and I can say that you have definitely had all of those skills since law school the writing, the research, communicating complex ideas and mentoring so it makes sense that all of that would be exciting to you, like working with Professor Bybee's class and then now you know, working with some of our summer law clerks and others which we'll get into further in the conversation. So well, thanks for talking about your background. I think it's great to get to know a little bit about our guests and it helps the listeners understand sort of what motivates you for the work you do as well. So when I introduced you, I said you practice in bonds litigation department and so I guess for listeners and we've talked about this a couple of other times but this does not mean you are running to court every day, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:Oh no, definitely not, and especially not in this age either, now that so much of litigation occurs remotely. Since the pandemic, especially now and we're definitely not running to court literally every day A lot of oral argument is done virtually, court conferences are done virtually through Zoom or Microsoft Teams. So, no, we're not in an actual physical courtroom, and even before the pandemic that's not the case. Litigators do a whole lot of other things besides being court arguing. We're the attorneys who draft the documents that commence a lawsuit. So the complaint is a document that lays out your allegations for your causes of action. We engage in discovery, we review documents that opposing counsel has provided us, and we do the same when we produce them to opposing counsel, and we also a lot of times are just engaging in settlement discussions with opposing counsel as well, and all this stuff is kind of behind the scenes. It's, you know, when you think of an attorney based on what you see in literature or TV. It's always there in the courtroom, but that is very rarely the case actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a lot about advising and talking to clients right and talking about the strategy that they may want to have if they want to send that first document, that complaint, or how they respond to one 100%.
Speaker 2:Most of litigation is just advising the client on the next step of the process and the risks and benefits of pursuing litigation and, honestly, the largest part is probably the discovery phase, when we are going through hundreds, if not thousands, of documents to really figure out what happened that led to the lawsuit.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and that's, for associates, a big part of where they get to learn and become sort of the master of the story, right? Because you're the one going through all those documents and advising the members or the partners on here's what happened, here's what I found. So that's how you can become a real integral part of a litigation, isn't it?
Speaker 2:100%. When you're reviewing that quantity of documents, you do catch facts that some other attorneys, the member on the case, senior associates might not have picked up on. You're line for line, reading these pages and you get intimately familiar with the facts of the case. And sometimes, when you're in a meeting talking with your co-counsel, you're the member on the case. You might say oh, by the way, I saw that this happened and they didn't pick up on it because they're not in the weeds like that. And so it's very beneficial and you really do bring a lot of value to a case by really going into the trenches and looking through all of these documents. It's integral, it's an important part.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and that's how you sort of learn to build a case right, because you bring that to the member and then they say, okay, this is how we're going to use it and it really shows how you build a case and how you advise the client, depending on what that document sort of does.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it forms strategy exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember that we used the phrase hot doc for documents that were like oh boy we've got that.
Speaker 2:On our document review system there's a tab that's specifically labeled hot doc and you know there's a very important document. Whether good or bad, you've got it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have to tell the truth either way.
Speaker 2:So yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, so will you tell us a little bit about your practice, maybe the types of matters that you work on?
Speaker 2:Sure, I'm in state court, federal court, town, village, city court it's really the whole range of courts at the state and federal level. I have cases pending in town court and very rural areas of New York state, and I've got a case pending in federal district court in Manhattan. So it really runs the gamut. It's all over the place, and I think that's what makes it so interesting is that each of these courts has their own individual rules.
Speaker 2:State courts have very different procedure than federal courts, and so you have to master so many different rules and procedural rules that you have to be on top of, because you can really screw up a case or you could really win your case on the procedural rules alone, and so it's a uniquely challenging aspect of being a lawyer, a litigator in particular, is the range of cases you have and where they are venued. The clients that I do work for. Their cases can involve a wide range of matters as well as simple as failing to pay on a promissory note, which would be breach of contract based to failing to perform under, like a real estate purchase agreement, or can get more complicated, or trademark infringement. So even the cases themselves are varied in terms of their complexity. And again, that's just each day. You show up to work and you never know what you're going to get. You never know what matter you'll be working on or where it will be, and so it keeps it interesting for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, I think I'm just I have to point out this learning moment. If there are new attorneys or students on, if you're the associate on a litigation and you are in whatever town, village, state or federal court, look up the rules, always look up the rules, always go look up the local rules.
Speaker 2:And it's hard too, because rules are supposed to be uniform, but then each judge has their own individual rules, which sometimes conflict with other judges, even in the same jurisdiction, and so, yeah, you've got to be on top of it for sure.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Don't like say to the partner that you're working for like well, I thought you knew the rules right, because that's not your role. Always know the rules and you want to know them too, because you want to know how you're supposed to proceed or what might come next and what else you might be working on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely, and sometimes you'll have a case venue at some place and then attorney in the firm you know has a case that arises in that same jurisdiction and then you can consult with them and advise them. You know, by the way, heads up, you know this is something to be aware of in terms of a deadline or, you know, finally you've got to do because of that court's individual rules. So that's what's nice about the firm of the size is we can't have that collaboration and bounce ideas and notify our colleagues when you know we see a red flag possibly coming down the road.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think it's called PTI. Pardon the Interruption.
Speaker 2:And those else go out.
Speaker 1:But it's really amazing how much that helps people collaborate and learn from what each other has been doing in various courts on the litigation side for sure.
Speaker 2:I really enjoy the litigation department because it is very collaborative. A lot of the times we have to think on our toes. That's a part of being a litigator. But when you encounter a problem that you don't really know how to address, you for sure can find someone in this firm who has encountered it or can at least help you formulate an idea of how to address it. And that's incredible. Like that alone alleviates so much unnecessary stress and allows us to really focus on our clients' issues. We're not wasting our time trying to, in the first instance, figure out this issue. Someone else here has dealt with it and we can bounce ideas off each other and quickly find an answer and save our clients some time and money. So it's great. It's really beneficial.
Speaker 2:And I think this department excels in that collaboration aspect.
Speaker 1:I mean I sit on one of them.
Speaker 2:so I agree, I mean I sit on one of them, so I watch it, and You're an honoree litigator here. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:I'm a former litigator, so they put me on this floor because I understand that.
Speaker 2:That's why it's like I'm feeling home on this floor.
Speaker 3:It makes sense.
Speaker 2:Perfect.
Speaker 1:Well, so why did you choose litigation? Is it something that you thought about in law school?
Speaker 2:It was. The thing with law school is it's very litigation focused. The way that the professors have you think while in class and the way that some of the legal writing classes are it gears you to be ready to litigate. Law school is just reading a bunch of decisions issued by courts, and that's what litigation is. You read these decisions and you piece them together, figure out what the state of the law is, and then you advise your client on it or you're writing a motion on it or an appeal. That's what litigation is and that's what law school prepares you for. It just naturally felt right for me because I enjoyed that process in law school. I did well in it, I liked it. I thought, well, when I graduated from here and I become an actual attorney, I would like to do something that's most similar to this. I think litigation is the most similar practice area out of law school. That's what framed how I decided to become a litigator.
Speaker 1:We didn't talk about it, but you summered at Bond as well, didn't you?
Speaker 2:I did. Yeah, I think. When I applied, I indicated that I was leaning towards litigation. Department Summer program allows the summer law clerks to do a rotation through each department, so I was able to get a taste of all the others, but I indicated ahead of time that I think I was leaning towards litigation. When I was a summer law clerk which was the summer of 2019, I realized, yeah, this is what I want to do, this is the work I enjoy motion practice, which is a huge part of being a litigator.
Speaker 2:I enjoyed motion practice largely because it's unique and that it allows you to really use all of the skills at the same time. That being a lawyer requires you have to do the research, you have to do the writing, the legal communication, and then you have to do the oral argument. So I think motion practice is unique in that it combines all of those skills into one single assignment almost, and you can only find that in litigation. So I was given a motion practice assignment as a summer law clerk and I really enjoyed it. I really dug into it and I got good feedback on it and I said, yeah, this is where I want to be, this is what I want to do.
Speaker 1:That's great. I think that's great. It's also good that you got to see the other areas of the firm as well, in case you have to refer something up. You know a little bit about what they do in the other practice groups, departments of the law firm.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it did work from those other attorneys who are in those other practice areas and departments. I formed connections with them as a summer law clerk and as I started out here as an associate and I formed those bonds and now I get working them when they need a litigator to help them out on their cases, and so that rotation proved crucial in other ways as well.
Speaker 1:That's great, and so we were talking about summer law. Clerk, you were just department coordinator for the most recent summer class, weren't you?
Speaker 2:I was, I was and I really enjoyed the mentoring that I was able to get from that. I think I'm in a unique position because I was 2019 seems not that long ago, even though it was about four years at this point, but it feels like yesterday and so I remember very clearly how I felt when I was in their shoes and so I knew the questions that they likely had.
Speaker 2:I knew the concerns they likely had and I was able to answer them for the summer law clerks and how I would have want them answered for me when I was in their shoes, and I think that allowed me to mentor them and advise them pretty effectively. And they seem to have enjoyed it. You know I enjoyed having them. They were all great talent. They're going to be great attorneys when they graduate law school and take the bar, but it's cool. It was nice to be on the other side and see how it really works from the firm's perspective, as compared to being the summer law clerk.
Speaker 1:Right to see all that goes into planning the program and how much so.
Speaker 2:When you're a summer law clerk, you appreciate everything the firm is doing for you and everything that it's planning and all of the events. But I don't think it's until you're actually on the other side that you see how much work goes into it and the firm does it well. It was great. It was a great summer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that the recruiting team does a great job and it's great to have all of you, all the associates who serve as coordinators, be part of that because, you're right, there is something about being a little bit closer in the timeline to the summer law clerks where you understand, like, and there's also they're not maybe as intimidated to come and say like, hey, I don't know where this is or I don't know what this means.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we were able to have more candid discussions and I think they would with like a member, for example, they sensed that I was fairly new. You know 30 year associates. So they sensed that and I think they were. They felt more comfortable around me and we were able to have candid discussions and was able to give them some good advice.
Speaker 1:So that's great. So you know you're going to be a fourth year associate in just like any minute now, right?
Speaker 2:It was thinking that on the drive in today, I had a hearing about an hour away today this morning. And on the drive back, I think, oh my goodness, it's almost September and I'm going to be a fourth year, like that just shocks me. It shocks me because, again, like I said, I was a summer law clerk in 2019 and that feels like yesterday. I think the pandemic kind of sped time up for us and so it's just it's shocking. But here we are.
Speaker 1:I know you well, so we were. I think we said we were going to talk about this, but you had that unusual three year with COVID, which closed schools at spring break. Then you took the bar online it was so bizarre.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, when back in March, when there were rumblings of things getting shut down or whatever, I remember looking to some of my classmates and be like this be the last time I see, like I think we're going home and I don't know if we're coming back. You know, this may be the last time I see you. My classmates were spread out across the country where they came from and we're all kind of getting sent back. And then obviously that's what happened Everything did shut down and then the bar exam was canceled twice maybe, and then it was cut in half so it was half as long and then put into like a remote format where we were doing it at home instead of going to a test location.
Speaker 2:And it was bizarre because I was in my childhood bedroom at my parents' house taking the bar exam and I just thought to myself I never imagined in a million years that this is where I would be taking the bars.
Speaker 2:You know, and it's funny because since it was done remotely, the software, the program that we had administering the test, was designed to pick up on any sound to make sure that we know there wasn't someone in the room with us allowing us to cheat or whatever, and so it would flag you anytime. It picked up on a sound in the background and they warned us that this would be the case, and so I had to take so many precautions that you shouldn't have to think about when you're studying for the most important exam of your life. Like, my parents had a landline, so I disconnected that, so I wanted to start reading. With a solicitor, we have a dog. My mom took the dog to work so that she wouldn't start barking if the UPS person showed up, and these are the things that you shouldn't have to worry about when you're studying for the bar exam, but we had to.
Speaker 3:We survived it.
Speaker 2:We made it through.
Speaker 1:You're supposed to be able to walk into a test center with a gallon clear plastic bag and two pencils and take the telling right, like that's supposed to be how this works, and like your laptop.
Speaker 2:Like could have been any more different, I know.
Speaker 1:And the pencil spokes are for the bubble filling in for a multiple choice part. But it's right, it was so different, and then it was even at a different time. You started studying and then you stopped studying. Then you had to start again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for the listeners who aren't familiar with how you study for the bar exam, is you purchase what's called a bar prep and it's on a schedule.
Speaker 2:Like there are videos and modules you'll have to do and guides you have to fill out study guides. But it's on a schedule for like an eight to 10 week period. I think yes. So when you're when the bar exam is getting canceled twice, the schedule is getting dragged out longer and longer. So you had to stop studying to make sure you didn't forget the stuff that you started out studying weeks ago. And so it was a mess. It was in some. It was a mess, but we all made it. We all did fine and I think we benefited from it. It made us tougher. So, like you said, it made us more flexible and we're pretty adaptable. We found out.
Speaker 1:so yeah, I think you're a pretty successful class already working really hard. You're supposed to take a July bar, then a September bar and you took an October bar.
Speaker 2:But October 5th and 6th is what it was, I think I engrained in my memory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which meant that, instead of starting in September, you had to wait to start with us, because we didn't want you to start in the middle of studying for the bar exam. So, everybody think we figured it out and hopefully that won't happen again, yeah knock on wood for that one.
Speaker 1:Exactly Well. So another aspect of your actual practice is your pro bono work. And just for the listeners, pro bono work is when attorneys do work without compensation for individuals, organizations or causes that might not otherwise be able to afford an attorney. In our pro bono policy, it's no individuals under the certain percentage of the poverty line, individuals who just really couldn't access legal services. And so what drew you to volunteering to do pro bono work so early in your career?
Speaker 2:It was actually again when I was a summer law clerk in 2019, the summer of 2019, a retired member here, George Low. He was a magistrate judge for the Northern District of New York, the US attorney for the Northern District of New York, and then so he worked at Bond for a while and again now he's retired but he handles a lot of our pro bono cases. He knocked on my door, he came in and he said I've got a case he introduced himself to me and he goes. I've got a case that I like your assistance with. It's a pro bono matter and you look into some issues. And I said, sure, yeah, why not? And so I dug in and I knew Judge Low. I knew how important a person he is in the legal community here in Syracuse, New York and, frankly, upstate generally, and so I really wanted to have a home run on this assignment. I really wanted to knock it out of the bulk car, and so I worked very hard on it. I gave it to him and he was impressed. He liked it, and so he kept me on the case and we kept working on it and it really ingrained in me this understanding of how important pro bono is.
Speaker 2:And actually, when I went back to law school that fall, graduated and eventually came back to Bond as an associate the following year, that case was still pending and he saw that I had formally started as a full-time employee, as an associate. And he goes Colin, do you remember that assignment I had you work on when you were a summer law clerk? And I said, yeah, I remember it pretty well. He goes. Well, it's still pending and I want your help. And so I joined the team that he had already assembled and we took it all the way to its finish, and every year since then I've made pro bono a steady portion of my practice, and just doing it that early on it ingrained in me the importance and how manageable it is to have pro bono work, Even at a law firm, a big law firm like ours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even as an associate, that you can build it in to what you're working on, because we have this privilege of this law degree and this license and the resources of a large law firm, and so it's great to do that. It's great experience for you all. You get to work with a lawyer who, like you said, is retired, who was so revered but you wouldn't have been able to lawyer and jurist we wouldn't have been able to work with otherwise. But you get to learn from him in a really sort of not necessarily one on one, but almost one on one, because those are smaller and you really get his feedback. And I think it's a great experience on so many levels.
Speaker 2:It's a great mentoring experience. Judge Alosa is a talented attorney. To be able to sit in a conference room with him and other members of the team and think in the abstract, conceptually, about our legal argument and how to frame the issues, and to watch him and listen to him think out loud was it was great. It was a great experience and I'm very thankful for him. He definitely played a huge role in encouraging me to embrace pro bono work.
Speaker 1:And I think we should point out that the justice center here, where a lot of the legal aid and volunteer lawyers projects are, is the George Lowe Center. So that shows that his commitment is pretty strong.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's funny, I lived downtown and I actually stumbled upon it accidentally. I was just late walking to get a coffee, like one Saturday morning, and I walked by it and I see George H Lowe on the big thing. So I Google and, yeah, I didn't realize that beforehand, I just found it on mistake and accident.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very, very neat. Probably we're a one now, maybe when it became that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's probably before my time Really getting into legal community or anything.
Speaker 1:So it's great. I mean it just shows his commitment and then the firm's commitment as well. You've had other trial work as well. You took with just one attorney as your mentor. A retired member of the firm took something straight through trial the two of you, right.
Speaker 2:So after I finished with that assignment with Judge Lowe, that case came to a tuna and almost immediately he came to my office and said Tom Smith, who is another retired member, has a prisoner litigation pro bono case and I want you to help him out on it Will you do it.
Speaker 2:And I said, of course I'll do it. You know we just finished this one and I'd be more than happy to get involved in another. The experience I got on the first case was great and I wanted to continue with that trajectory, and so he was very pleased with that. Tom Smith came in and explained to me the situation, what was going on. When I joined, discovery was just ending, so several depositions had already been taken. I think there was one deposition that remained, and so I sat in on that while Tom Smith conducted it.
Speaker 2:Like I said, it was a prisoner litigation case, so our client was an incarcerated individual who alleged that he had been assaulted by some New York state corrections officers, and so we sued. And again, when I got put on the case, discovery was nearing completion, and so I was heavily most heavily involved in like the pre-trial motions so motions and lemonade, which are motions to exclude evidence that you don't want in Both sides do it and so I was heavily involved in that. I assembled the trial binders and the exhibits that we'd be relying on. I helped develop trial strategy. You know how to present the evidence and the witness testimony, and it was great. It was one of the highlights of my time here, it was because of how rare it is to get trial experience in federal district court. Most cases settle, and this one did it, and so it was a good opportunity for me to get that kind of experience that otherwise is hard to come by.
Speaker 2:So we did, we went straight to trial. I think it lasted about four days. We put on our case. I conducted an examination on the stand of one of our witnesses, another inmate who alleged to have witnessed the assault that occurred on our client, so I questioned him and elicited some very helpful testimony.
Speaker 2:I cross examined one of the defendants trying to poke holes in his story, and I was also in charge of pulling up the exhibits on what's called trial tractor.
Speaker 2:So it's this feature, the software we have where all of our exhibits are in electronic format, and so federal district court is very advanced, like the technology they have is incredible. It's very good, and so we were able to plug in our laptop to their technology and display electronic images of each of our exhibits On these computer screens that were in front of the jurors, so the jurors could see what we were looking at. The judge had her own screen so she could see the exhibit we had pulled up, and what made it really interesting is we could annotate so we could highlight different portions of that exhibit circle. It, you know, have little pointers so the jury could follow along with what was being read in the exhibit, and it just made it very convenient and so I was in charge of that portion of it as well. Again, it lasted for about four days and unfortunately, the jury did return a verdict against us. They found the corrections officers not liable.
Speaker 2:You know these cases are notoriously hard to win when you have one party an inmate testifying against three or four corrections officers. When a jury is weighing that the way things are, they pent aside with the three corrections officers against the one inmate.
Speaker 1:Which was unfortunate. I can point out to people who might be wondering you said it was in federal court and that the client was an inmate, but this is a civil trial. So people might be oh, this is criminal, but this is a civil trial that's brought in federal court because were there constitutional claims that the inmate said in violation of the Eighth Amendment rights of cruel and unusual punishment. No-transcript.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know that's. That's a good point. I overlooked that I do exclusively civil litigation and no criminal matters. And you're right. So this was a civil lawsuit and so there's a federal statute 42 us in section 1983 which provides individuals with a private right of action to sue those acting under color of state law Whenever they commit a constitutional violation against you. Whether that's the first amendment, the 8th amendment here it was a first and eighth amendment claim, because we alleged that the assault was due in retaliation To our client exercising his freedom of speech, and so that's how we kind of hooked the first amendment to this case as well as the 8th amendment. It was interesting facts.
Speaker 2:I'm passionate about civil rights and so I was really interested in this case.
Speaker 2:I really enjoyed fighting it for our client and and it was unfortunate jury returned a verdict against us.
Speaker 2:But you know, if he came to me the next day with the same case, I would say, yeah, we're gonna try this, we're gonna go through with it again.
Speaker 2:I'm with you every step of the way, because one thing about pro bono in this experience specifically, is you realize how underserved communities are most likely not to get their day in court, and they're most likely to be the ones facing injustices. And the reason pro bono is so great is because courts can only vindicate rights if lit against or an equal footing in the courtroom. And If our client, you know he's not familiar with the rules of evidence, he's not familiar of when you should raise an objection to certain testimony being listed it, and so he wouldn't have been on equal footing without without us in that courtroom and the thousands of other Lit against out there pro say lit against are facing the same issue and then they need an attorney in that courtroom to help them out and To vindicate their rights, because the jury can only arrive at a true Determination, they can only find truth, if both parties are adequately represented in the courtroom.
Speaker 1:That's what your district appointed us for this right Like. That's why they appoint counsel for these matters, to make sure that Both sides are heard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and and it's integral, it really is that puts you in good standing with with the judges in the area and again, you're doing good work. That needs to get done, and so it was a wonderful experience, and, and I hope other future litigators in our firm are equally inclined to accept these assignments when they come their way.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I hope non litigators will at least take on some of the discovery piece to learn a little bit about.
Speaker 1:What's going on as well because you sit on the pro bono committee with me and you know it's. It's such an important piece. If law school does what it's supposed to. Everyone who becomes a lawyer understands that both sides need to be heard, or this doesn't work. This system of justice, the system you know, our judicial system, it doesn't work unless both sides are heard and that's why courts, particularly the federal courts, have such a robust Practice where they sign out cases, ask firms to take cases, because they want to make sure that, you know there is that equal footing and that people who might not otherwise have the option have someone representing them as they go forward in the process. I just think it's a critical piece to being a lawyer, to making sure that pro bono is something that you care about. You support, you know, even if you know people feel like they don't have the skills, then support financially the agencies who do the work to keep things going, because Otherwise the law doesn't develop correctly.
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah, you know, if an attorney fresh out of law school doesn't understand or appreciate the importance of pro bono, if they take on one assignment they will. They will come to learn and appreciate pro bono work. It's really revealing hearing your client's story and what they've been through and and them just feeling helpless about it. It and you're there to help. You're there to fix it. When you ask first-year law students right there in law school, they oftentimes point to Atticus Finch into Kilmockingbird.
Speaker 2:I know, that's cheesy like you hear it all the time, it's always okay, it's a great book, yeah you know it's always been like their, their narrative in their application as to why they want to come to law school. I but that that same theme is kind of on the minds of a lot of first-year law students. And then they go through law school and become a Little bit jaded and lose it, maybe lose a little bit of that sense, and so if that's the case, you know, just taking on one problem assignment can really relight that fire and it reminds you why you're there, why you're an attorney, and the good that you can do by putting your skills in your law degree out there for these people, for those who need it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I'm just gonna say it again you, the transactional lawyers out there, right, like there's people who want to start small businesses who don't have the ability to hire an attorney right, they don't have the financial capability to do that. But, you know, through volunteer lawyers, project type initiatives, just cause out in Rochester and other organizations, you can do that. You can help them close on their real estate. You can do all different types of work, like litigation is the thing that we think of, right, because we're litigators and and that's what we see most often and it helps the law develop. But all those pieces also sort of advance. What's sometimes what's been broken in the law with structural racism, if we can get in there and help people Get those next steps that they need and get get some Representation yeah, and you know I think it's an affirmative obligation that every attorney has to pay it forward.
Speaker 2:I might be in the minority view, but I think every attorney should strive for 50 hours of pro bono every year. I know I think that requirement only applies to those who are applying to the bar and currently in New York State, but I Think a lot of good could be done In our communities and just in the public perception of the law profession in general If every attorney just strive to just hit 50 hours or as close to it as they could every year. You know that's a significant amount of pro bono work.
Speaker 1:That can go a long way if everybody does it Absolutely help make people who have no reason to believe in the law yeah, like the law has never proven to them that it works. For them to show that that it can, and to sort of change Not only that perception but the operation, the, the law, the direction of Hop, jurisprudence and and what's happening. So I agree with you, I agree with you, and if bonchenikin king, you, you do get 50 hours counted towards your billable target, if you do it.
Speaker 2:So it's like an implied endorsement. You know that the firm does, because you know that's a crucial thing. We haven't touched on that yet, but yeah, the firm counts 50 hours of pro bono towards your annual billable requirement. So it's the firm saying, yes, we, we want you to engage in this stuff, we value this, we find it important and and again, that's something that stuck out to me when I was a summer law clerk and made me realize, yes, this is the right place for me If our values aligned in this, and that for both is important and it'll be accommodated here.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. Well, colin, it's always a pleasure to get a chance to speak with you. I'm really thrilled that you're engaging in pro bono work, that you're on the committee with me and that you're learning so much and Already paying it forward with the summer law clerks and others as a coordinator. So I hope that you'll come back soon to talk about maybe a case you're working on or some Change in the law, some case law that comes out. So please consider coming back and joining us 100% never.
Speaker 2:You want me? Just walk down the hall, knock on my door and now do it. I'll jump to the opportunity.
Speaker 1:Thanks, thanks, so much. Thank you for tuning into this episode of legally bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm, I have a suggestion for a future topic. Please email us at legally bond at BSK comm. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to legally bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well.
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