Legally Bond
Legally Bond
An Interview with Michael Billok and Ryan Marquette, Veterans Day
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In this special Veterans Day episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond attorneys Michael Billok and Ryan Marquette about their military careers and paths to Bond.
Bond is grateful to all of our veterans and those who are still actively serving in the United States military. Thank you for your service as well as the sacrifices of your families and loved ones!
Military Service and Career Transitions
Speaker 1Hello and welcome to Legally Bond , a podcast presented by the law firm Bonn-Chek and King . I'm your host , Kim Wolf Price . Veterans Day , November 11th , is a day which honors all of those who have served the United States and the Armed Forces , both in times of war and peace . In recognition of the holiday and the service of the many members of Bond's team who have been members of the Armed Forces , we speak with two attorneys who have served our country , taking different routes to their law degrees . We thank them , as well as everyone at Bond and throughout our nation who has served in the United States Armed Forces . So our first guest today is Mike Billick . Mike is a member in our Saratoga Springs and Albany offices who practices labor and employment law . Welcome to the podcast , Mike . Thanks for joining us .
Speaker 2I appreciate being here , no problem .
Speaker 1Terrific Well , thank you . Saratoga Springs is one of my favorite places .
Speaker 2It's not terrible . I love it here .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's definitely not terrible . I may tell the kids that that's where we're moving after like thinking out of school . So be careful , I could be like moving into the hall in that little space .
Speaker 2Okay , okay .
Speaker 1All right . Well , so while we focus on military service and honor Veterans Day , I'd like to talk to you a little bit about your work at Bond also , if that works , though right at the start , when I was getting ready , I realized those are pretty intertwined your career and your military service . So would you mind talking a bit about your background , whatever you want to share , to sort of let the listeners get to know you a little bit ?
Speaker 2Trying to think of a short snapshot right , Asking a lawyer to explain something . It could be a long time , but I grew up in New Jersey and then went to the Naval Academy for undergrad and after that I selected submarine . So I went through the training pipeline and while I was in the training pipeline I got married . The sub I ultimately served on was the USS Nevada out of Bangor , Washington , and I served there for several years and the way we found Saratoga was then . I was stationed here . There's nuclear power training unit . At the time there was two prototype reactors . Now there's just the one . One's been decommissioned .
Speaker 2But I was an instructor on site teaching sailors how to operate a nuclear reactor , who are going on submarines and aircraft carriers . And then I went down to DC and was down there working up the hill from the Pentagon during the day and going to law school at night . And I wasn't quite done with law school when I was getting out of the Navy and I wound up getting a summer associate ship and ultimately clerking , being a law clerk at a law firm down in DC while I was finishing up law school and worked at that firm for several years . But we kept coming and visiting friends up here and , like I said , we love Saratoga and ultimately decided to move back up here and move back up here in 2010 . So it's been 13 years since I'm moving back .
Speaker 1That's great . It's crazy how fast that 13 years goes in some ways , isn't it ?
Speaker 2Very fast .
Speaker 1Very fast , so that's great . I didn't realize you went to school while working , while still being in the Navy . That is no easy feat . For people who don't know . It's really hard to go to law school part time on the side while working . That's it .
Speaker 1So that's fantastic and , as I mentioned , everything comes together pretty quickly with your military service because you chose the Naval Academy , and so that's not easy to do . To attend the Naval Academy , the admission process is really rigorous and it takes more than great grades to get in , so you have to be like 15 , 16 , 17 years old when you decide , hey , I think I might want to do this . So what , as a high schooler drew you to the Naval Academy ?
Speaker 2That was my . My father was kind of pushing for me to go to a military academy . But part of it also was both the Naval Academy and West Point had these programs like a summer program between your junior and senior high school where you could go there for a week and kind of see what it was like , which I did at both places . I liked it at both places , but I liked the Naval Academy better . To be frank , part of it came down to the fact that there's no tuition . Yes , you pay for it in your years of service , but that was a large factor in deciding to go . I wasn't . I'll put it this way when I was in high school and ultimately decided to go to the Naval Academy and told my friends I was going , there was a lot of surprise there . I never really struck a lot of people as a military type I kind of still don't but once I got in I learned that I mean , there's there's all types in in the military .
Speaker 1So can you talk a little bit about , maybe , that experience and how it has shaped your career going forward , because it is , I would imagine , not having gone to one of the military academies , there's more to it , right , you also have drill , not just your full course load and everything else , so can you talk a little bit about how that shaped your career ?
Speaker 2Sure , I mean you , you don't have . You definitely don't have the , the traditional college experience . You don't have a lot of freedoms in that regard , the the first year . It changes and has changed throughout the course of the decades , but when I was there your first year , you don't , you only have 12 hours of time off a week . It was from from noon Saturday to midnight Saturday , where you could be out in town in uniform and that you not even in civilian clothes .
Speaker 2And if there's a football home football game that weekend , well that eats into your 12 hours because the whole brigade is there and eventually start a sophomore year , junior year , having being able to go overnight for a weekend somewhere or wearing civilian clothes and things of that nature . So you have class , you have drill , or everybody has to do a sport or an activity , things of that nature . So it it's pretty regimented . There are some freedoms . You get more freedoms as you become more of an upper class , but it's a great experience . A lot of a lot of probably all Academy grads joke that it's it's a great place to be from and not a great place to be , but I did enjoy it when I was there and I and the friends that you make are lifelong friends , and part of that is going through something very difficult together .
Speaker 1in that regard , it is in a beautiful place too . That's also nice to be in a beautiful place . Yes , absolutely . And if there is something about going through it together , you know we say that even with one first year law students . Right , like your class , you go through this together . It's not the same as the military , I'm not suggesting that but there's something about having that cohort that does help .
Speaker 2Absolutely .
Speaker 1It also seems like it would teach you to use your time very wisely if you only had 12 hours off in a week .
Speaker 2Yes , you , you definitely have to be efficient and it's kind of funny that you mentioned like going to the law school part time and we're going as an evening student .
Speaker 2I went , I went to Georgetown and my classmates and I , in the evening classes you had , there was probably a third of us that worked , whereas about two thirds didn't work and either they weren't accepted into the day program or they wanted to do the evening program because it was a lighter course load , a lighter credit load for the first year and that and that very difficult first year and it was just interesting with my classmates and I and some were actually fellow classmates from the Naval Academy that were there sitting in the back row of the lecture hall with another friend of mine who was in the CIA as well . We just want the professor to get to the point . What's the rule of this case ? We don't need that hypothetical A , hypothetical B and when other students who were oh , they wanted to ask professor this question or that question showed they'd done a reading . It's like we're not paying this tuition to listen to you . We want to listen to professors . So please stop asking so many questions .
Speaker 1Yes , that's fair . They're that efficiency . I worked before law school and I would sit in the back row of like come on , guys , let's move it along . Like there is something about your like let's , let's get to this , let's get to it . So I imagine , especially when you were doing both at the same time . You know , you know you have to get up and go to duty tomorrow , but you have work , so it must really be like you want to get to the point .
Speaker 2Yes , absolutely .
Speaker 1So it's obvious , but I didn't think about it before we started talking and I started , you know , preparing for today . What was your second career ? Military was really a career for you before you made the jump . Was that a helpful first career for you ?
Speaker 2Definitely it was a helpful first career . Part of it was just having that experience and , as I mentioned , in law school you had the , you had us in the evening . Students with jobs and those who had kind of gone to law school right out of college and they would be a number of them would be freaking out about being worried about being called on in class or they hadn't done the reading or they were worried about this exam . And the rest of us are going okay , nobody's going to die today . We're good Right .
Speaker 1This isn't so bad . I'm no one's life is on the line . Let's just get this done .
Speaker 2Exactly , exactly . It helps put things in perspective . We'll put it that way .
Speaker 1I would say that it definitely does . So you mentioned I didn't know that when you served you were on a summary , so does that mean you go out for like six months at a time ? Sometimes Are they long deployments when you're on active duty ?
Speaker 2So I was on a nuclear missile sub . There's two types . There's the attack submarines and then there's the nuclear missile subs which are called boomers . The attack subs will go out on deployments for six months at a time , but that doesn't mean that they're out at sea for six months . So we'll pull into ports and things of that nature . They're just away from their home port for six months at a time .
Speaker 2At the time I was in the Navy and I understand the patrols are shorter now . We had 10 or 11 week patrols . So to have maximum readiness to have nuclear missile subs be out at sea for as much as possible , they actually had two crews and they still had two crews . So one crew would our rotation would basically be . The sub would come in , we would do maintenance on it for about a month . Then we'd take it out for 10 , 11 weeks and then come back in . We would help the oncoming crew do maintenance for a month and then when the sub would go out with the other crew , we would get a week or two off and then we go into training for several weeks until they came back . So we'd be out for and there was one patrol where we didn't pull in anywhere . We were out for the full 70 , 77 days without pulling in anywhere .
Speaker 1That's wild , I mean for someone who's never been on a submarine , particularly . But that's quite a commitment , right Like it's . That's what you're doing . You get to sleep , but you're at work basically all the time .
Speaker 2And going from submarine into civilian life . It was , like you know , I could have a bad boss , but they can't kick in my door to my bedroom and wake me up Again . That perspective issue .
Speaker 1Yeah , that is an excellent point . That is not something that will happen . Everyone should be very confident that in law practice that's not a normal activity . So how did you choose which role you'd take in the Navy as you were leaving the Naval Academy ?
Speaker 2So when you're there in the summers you have various experiences . Between plebe summer , freshman year and sophomore year we had something that was called Midship and Leadership Training , where we basically went to Quantico for a month to see what life was like as a Marine . I'm not a big fan of that . I'm not an outdoors person . There are a lot of my friends at Marine and they're well suited to it .
Speaker 2I am not , and in terms of being a pilot I actually had a depth perception issue which wouldn't allow me to do that , and so it kind of came down to submarines and surface and I had different cruises as a Midshipman .
Transition From Navy to Law Firm
Speaker 2One summer I was on a surface ship out in the Mediterranean . It was a cruiser , it was Lady Gulf and then I had a cruise quote unquote cruise a few weeks on the USS Kamehameha old submarine , now decommissioned , and I really I just got along very well with the people on the submarine and I thought the crew was a little more tightly knit than the crew on a surface ship , and I guess it kind of has to be right , because there's just less space , and so that's why I decided to go submarines .
Speaker 1I mean it's pretty amazing while kids in other programs are trying to figure out what to do over the summer . Right , if you're in a non-military undergraduate program , but for you all it was really very job focused , right . What will I do in the next phase of my career ? And you really got that experience .
Speaker 2Right , absolutely .
Speaker 1So you were going to law school . You're still active duty and I think you said they didn't end . It wasn't a perfect , seamless end .
Speaker 2Right . So I started . I was working up the hill from the Pentagon and going to law school at night and I was getting out after that . That was a two year tour , so I was getting out that . I started in 2002 , I was ending in 2004 . And it wasn't until the , I think , spring of my first year or a little after that where I learned about the whole being a summer associate .
Speaker 2I really I had no idea what the process was like and started hearing about it , reading about it and thinking that , oh you know , it would really work out if I could be a summer associate to time that , when I got out of the Navy . And then , if it worked out well , and I got an offer to be able to clerk , be a paralegal during the day while still finishing law school night , and when I was looking at firms to be a summer associate and I talked to them about it and they said , of course , we can't guarantee anything but the firm I ultimately ended up at . Gives and done . People I interviewed with were very open to that and which I greatly appreciated , and they had a number of veterans who were attorneys as well , and they said , well , yeah , if it works out , we can't guarantee it , but probably it'll work out . And I took the chance and after I got the offer at the end of the summer , they kept me on and I stayed there working during the day and finishing up law school at night .
Speaker 1That's terrific . Are they in that Gibson ? Are they in that sort of K Street where all the firms sort of are somewhere around there ?
Speaker 2They're L .
Speaker 1Yes .
Speaker 2It's a Connecticut now , but , yeah , very close to that .
Speaker 1Yeah , the firm . I was at New York . Our office was on K , so every time we'd walk down the street I'd be like , well , there's just a firm every so they're all sort of together in that area . Makes it convenient , I imagine , for Georgetown law students to have them in one of those .
Speaker 2It does . Yeah , Although the funny thing is that the law school Georgetown Law School it's not on the Georgetown campus , it's down by Capitol Hill , by Union Station .
Speaker 1Oh , I didn't even realize that . So you're right down there , so you're in a different . All right , I think it's an interesting thing when firms and I think Bond tries to do this as well it's a good thing when they realize like , hey , this is a good candidate , let's make sure that with their military service , we pay attention to that , and actually it's gonna be an asset to us . So let's see if we can make this work , which is what Gibson did for you as you started out . And so Gibson does not have a Saratoga office . Was it an immediate switch from Gibson to Bond or was there another firm in between ?
Speaker 2It was a switch from Gibson to Bond and , funny enough , a friend of mine she was a few years ahead of me as an associate was from Syracuse and she had been a summer at Bond and yeah , when I told her I was looking to move up here , she said if you're moving upstate New York and you're going to practice upstate New York , you just have to work at Bond . So which she's like , okay . And , frankly , when I interviewed and I remember I interviewed one of the people I interviewed with or spoke with was Brian . I think he was on the recruiting committee at the time Brian followed it .
Speaker 2But I interviewed . We were looking to move in the summer of 2010 , and I interviewed in the fall of 2009 and got an offer . But I really didn't need to move until summer 2010, . Kids were in school , et cetera . So the firm was great about yep , you can start in the summer . And then , just like you said in terms of accommodation , I wound up having a trial that wound up starting in the beginning of July and the client wanted me to stay on and so I stayed on , and so I wound up moving my start date at Bond to the end of July and said go ahead , finish your trial and then you can come on up , which is what I did .
Speaker 1That's great . I do think that says a lot about Bond as well just that ability to understand that . This is a talented person . We'd like to be here , so let's make it work .
Speaker 2I really appreciated that .
Speaker 1Yeah , I had a similar experience with the firm and certainly I think that's what helps us stand out in a lot of ways . You gave me a good segue there , because this is a Law Firm podcast and so I think we should talk about your practice , which is labor and employment law , a little bit , so can you tell us a little bit ? You mentioned that you were in trial and I know that you still are sometimes , so can you talk a little bit about your practice , which is different than some of the other labor and employment folks at the firm ?
Speaker 2Absolutely . I would say my particular practice is maybe 60 to 70% litigation and the rest counseling and union traditional labor issues . But generally speaking , I do a lot of cases that are wage and hour matters in terms of helping clients have been sued , whether it's on a class or collective action basis or individual , as well as discrimination , harassment and those type of cases .
Experience in OSHA and Military Service
Speaker 2But I do have a fair amount of OSHA experience . When I was in DC I wound up working with a terrific OSHA practitioner . He was kind of my mentor , brooke Felner . All he did was OSHA work and partially because of I was a physics major and my work in submarines , it really transferred over . Well , I learned a lot about that procedure and how that works . So in here at Bond , any OSHA work myself and Pat will really be the ones to take that on , just because of the OSHA experience that we have .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's great , I mean . I think it's also great how you tie in even the undergrad degree and how I think people think they have a science degree right . They're never going to be able to do anything different at a law firm or they won't succeed . But even in the OSHA work you can see how that translates to the work you do .
Speaker 2Absolutely . I know it's got people . Wait , you were a physics major and became an employment lawyer . But yeah , there's a connection there .
Speaker 1Exactly , I can solve problems .
Speaker 2Exactly .
Speaker 1Because that's actually what you're supposed to do here , and I mentioned the Saratoga and all of the offices . When you joined us , you joined Bond in the Albany office , but you've since helped open the Saratoga Springs office in Saratoga Springs , correct ?
Speaker 2We opened in March of 2017 . We started really planning it in the second half of 2016 , where we just were having so many clients up here and meetings up here and it just made sense to open this office and for the community , it's been very welcoming and glad to be here .
Speaker 1And it's in a great location , right near the casino park , right there .
Speaker 2It's great to work where I live . I will definitely say that .
Speaker 1Absolutely , and also it helped you recruit a great assistant who then became a new associate with us , which is a pretty nice process . Yeah .
Speaker 2Oh my , absolutely yeah , you could just tell from the start that she was just incredibly smart and a superstar , and it's been amazing to see how she's doing .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's great because she had that experience of working with you and on those cases as a legal assistant some paralegal work in there as well , right , and now she's back after Albany Law and joined us . So I think that's a testament to your ability to mentor and bring people on board as well .
Speaker 2I would say most of it's Becca , but thank you .
Speaker 1She is pretty , she is pretty great . That's you , fed . I think you had something to do with it . All right , so I'm going to ask you , since we're on this program talking about your military service because of Veterans Day , how does your time to enable Academy and the Navy help you succeed in law practice ?
Speaker 2Again , going with the perspective , it really helps . Part of it is the efficiency and being able to multitask and handle several things at once when they're coming in . It's not quite having three people yelling reports at you that you have to interpret at the same time and acknowledge and get back to them . So it's easier than that , which is nice , but it's nice to be able to have that capability and , frankly , also just in terms of being decisive , sometimes as lawyers we can get into academic questions as to , well , what about this and what about that ? And sometimes you just got to say , okay , we have to make a decision here . This is not , this is the real world , it's not academics , and we make the best decision we have with the information that we have at the time . And in making that call in terms of we have to make the decision now versus can we wait , can we afford to wait to get more information about .
Speaker 1Yeah , I mentioned the risk assessment here feels a little less daunting sometimes . I mean , it's big right Because you're doing it for clients , but you can make the decision because you were taught to make a decision
Career Advice for Military Personnel
Speaker 1. I will say that sometimes , having been in legal academia , I did not know that anyone could make a decision anymore . So that decisiveness matters . It matters to clients , right , it matters to the people who work for you . Like , sometimes you just have to come to a point where here's the plan , this is how we're going .
Speaker 2And sometimes I have clients that they'll say they appreciate . I will just lay out okay , here's my thought process and here's my recommendations or what she'd do . And because sometimes others can do it in a very verbose way or a long way , but if I was ever trying to explain something to the captain and it was taken more than a few minutes , captain , be like , okay , you need to get your facts straight , make sure you know what you're talking about and then come back to talk to me and maybe not say it in that nice a way .
Speaker 1A little more direct maybe . So I think a lot of times , besides people who are just interested , I think students listen to the podcast and so is there any advice you would give to say , maybe someone in the Naval Academy now , or who just finishing their commitment and is thinking about law school post-sacred duty ?
Speaker 2I would just say to keep their options open , just generally , to be open to new things and new experiences , right ? Just because you did a certain thing in the Naval Academy or just because you did a certain thing in the military doesn't necessarily mean you can't have a completely different career afterwards . I mean , I have friends who are entrepreneurs . They went to the energy industry , they went to law school , they went to medical school . At a time if you're getting out when you're late 20s or early 30s or even really at any time I knew somebody that when I was at Gibson Dunn he was retiring from the Navy . During his short tours he had gone to law school at night . He couldn't do it all at once , right , I would say that his degree retired from the Navy as a captain in his early 40s to mid-40s and started working as a law firm and as a lawyer . You can do that . It's really never is too late and so don't feel that , oh , I can't change my career or I'm locked into this or locked into that . Decide what you'd like to do and go ahead and do it .
Speaker 2Actually , the way that I started looking at law school was when I was here on my short tour as an instructor at the prototype , I got a letter from McKinsey it was from another Naval County regret saying McKinsey and Company about being a management consultant . And I started looking at that and looking , oh gosh , this sounds like something pretty neat . You go in and help a client for a week and then you move on to a new client . But I'd have to go and get my MBA . And that's when my wife said Mike , you're always talking about the law and this was a time of Bush v Gore , and so if you're going to go back to school , why don't you go to law school and start looking into it ? And that's how that happened .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think it's being open to those possibilities right , and listening to the smart people in your lives who tell you hey , you usually do this . Why don't you look at this ?
Speaker 2Exactly . They may know you better than you know yourself .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's fantastic . Well , we're glad you picked law , so I didn't get the MBA . I know you have the physics background , so the math wasn't scaring you as it scares many of us before we picked the JV , so it's a good thing you made this call . Is there anything you'd like to add about military service or Veterans Day before I let you get back to lawyering today ?
Speaker 2It's just , I enjoyed it . I love putting on a uniform every day . It gives you a sense of purpose and I really do like the fact that I know our country hasn't always done this in the past , but especially within the past two decades or so many people , the Veterans Day , or the perception of veterans , appreciation of veterans , has really increased . And look , I was never in combat , I was on a submarine . I appreciate those that are really there in physical danger and everything that they do for us in our freedom . So freedom isn't free . It's not just a catchphrase , it's very true .
Speaker 1Absolutely Well . Thank you so much . And I don't know if you know that the next guest on the podcast is Armi . So I don't know if the Armi Navy game would have to get you guys in the same room or something .
Speaker 2We lost to Armi all four years I was at the NAIL Academy . It was heartbreaking . And then it was two years after I left . There was a 11-year streak where we beat Armi every year , and now it seems the tables have turned again . So I will say go Navy , beat Armi . And I've got my fingers crossed for Boston where it's being played this year .
Speaker 1Yes , that's fantastic , all right , well , thank you so much , mike , for taking the time to join us . I really do hope you'll come back , and I would love for you to talk about your OSHA practice on the podcast , or whatever else you'd like to talk about .
Speaker 2Sounds good .
Speaker 1All right , we'll have you back soon . Thanks so much .
Speaker 2All right , you're very welcome .
Military Career and Syracuse Connection
Speaker 1My next guest is Ryan Marquette . Ryan is an associate attorney in Bonn's Syracuse office . He hasn't settled into a department yet because he spent his first year post-law school graduation serving in the United States Army National Guard . So while he's been out of law school for a year and a half , he's been with us since September after coming back from active duty . Welcome back to the podcast , Ryan .
Speaker 4Thank you very much , kim , and I am now a veteran of the Legally Bond podcast . That's right Returning to the Legally . Bond podcast .
Speaker 1That was very good . You're a veteran here as well , not just veterans day , but even here you're a veteran , so I love it . Well , before we get into talking a little bit more about your service and your work here at Bond , we give us a little bit of a background refresh for those who might not remember from the first episode . Where are you from ? What's your school , family , whatever you'd like to mention ?
Speaker 4Yeah , absolutely so . My wife , vanessa and I are from Rome , new York , and , as you know , growing up in Utica , kim right next door as our neighbor .
Speaker 4When you grow up in Rome , you grow up a Syracuse fan , and so my wife and I reestablished here in the Baudelhousen Syracuse in 2018 . We've been here ever since and we absolutely love it . We do miss , as Rome is famous for , and Utica Kim , I won't throw any insults here Our chicken rigdies are greens , her greens , and our pizza is the absolute best dishes in the Rome Utica area with my honorable mentions here in Syracuse as well and recently found out turkey joints Turkey joints are a bone utica thing .
Speaker 4And we're going to bring them into the office and for our listeners that don't know , it is a overly sugary candy that comes out at Christmas time that looks like a turkey joint , and we were shocked to learn that that is a Rome Utica thing , and so we will bring those Syracuse as well and introduce them here into the workplace .
Speaker 1And how did you find this out , though , but this is one of my favorite parts of the story .
Speaker 4We found this out from the one and only Kelly Kaposi , who we mentioned turkey joints and she was like what are you talking about ? And so Kelly will be the first one to receive a turkey joint when they get brought in around Christmas time this year ? And why we eat them , I don't know , but you just have to .
Speaker 1It's far and far . It's a thin candy shell and some filling and it's a Christmas thing . It's sort of like sponge candy for our Western New York friends .
Speaker 4It's too much chocolate and too much sugar all in one .
Speaker 1And that's why it's for the holidays One time a year , one time a year . Well , thank you for that , becca , and we won't go into who has the best chicken cookies in Oneida County . We'll just say that Oneida County is probably home to them .
Speaker 4That's fair . We can keep the conflict outside the podcast .
Speaker 1That's right . It's just like we will for the Army Naming Game . We'll do the same thing with our riggy contest here . So your military career really started after you graduated from Niagara University . What drew you to service in the US Army ?
Speaker 4Well , my brother was the trailblazer for us in regards to my family and military service .
Speaker 4We had a generational gap , my grandfather was both served in the US Air Force and that's what brought him to Griffiths Air Force based in Rome . My parents didn't serve , but they grew up really instilled the values of patriotism and really trying to serve our nation's veterans as a child . But it was my brother that was first . He joined the Army right after 9-11 . And it really hit our entire family quickly because he was in our house on a daily basis and then the short time it took for him to go from our house through training to get assigned to a unit into Iraq was actually amazing .
Speaker 4And what that year group generation went through during the high turnover times with the global war on terror is absolutely amazing . And so he was the first in my family to go , and just hearing from his stories , the patriotism , the camaraderie , him doing his part in Iraq and later Afghanistan , really drew me to the military culture overall . And it hit a point my freshman year of college that it turned into something that I must do , not a want to do , not a should do , but really a must . And so at the freshman at Niagara University I joined the Reserve Officer Training Corps to eventually go on and serve in the United States Army .
Speaker 1That's great . So you went from being a Niagara Eagle . Are you guys the Eagles ?
Speaker 4Purple Eagles . Purple Eagles , specifically the Purple .
Speaker 1Eagles , specifically the Purple Eagles , to an officer right , because if you leave , if you're a finisher undergrad and then go into the Army , you enter as an officer .
Speaker 4Correct . So the Reserve Officer Training Corps puts you in a training pipeline as an undergraduate student to where you fulfill all the methods they're in training in order to become an Army officer or whatever branch that ROTC is affiliated with . So I was in the Army ROTC and so through my four years of college I fulfilled all those training requirements and I commissioned on graduation weekend , which is a very special time because on Friday night we hosted our commissioning ceremony to where we were all sworn in as Second Lieutenant into the United States Army , and then there's a very convenient off day on Saturday for extracurriculars , and then Sunday morning was our graduation . So it all together turned into a great weekend .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's fantastic . So after you've commissioned and then you start your first career , which was a career in the military . So what was your role ? Can you tell us a little bit about what you did with the US Army ?
Speaker 4Yep . So I served as an infantry officer and still serve as an infantry officer in the United States Army , but when I first commissioned I was in the active component , so that was my full time job , and the professional development model within the military is that our leaders need to experience very diverse work duties and responsibilities in order for our military to operate as a whole . So I think it's easiest to just think of the military as a massive organization with some organizations within it , and so part of that model is you change jobs every one to two years to get that diversity , workflow , experience and to gain proficient different duties and responsibilities to what makes the military work as a whole
Career Transition and Law School Pursuit
Speaker 4. So my first year I was at Fort Moore in .
Speaker 4Georgia , and that's where I completed all my initial training , my infantry-based officer leader course , ranger School , airborne School , et cetera . And then I was stationed at Fort Liberty , north Carolina . In there I started out as a platoon leader . As a platoon leader , you're in charge of roughly 30 soldiers . And from there I went on to serve as a company executive officer , where you're second in command of a company . And then I went into operations at the battalion level where I served as the chief of operations . Subsequently I was able to be promoted to captain and I went to the captain's career course back down at Fort Moore , georgia , which is a master's type course . That's about a year along . And then I came home , kim , to the one and only Fort Drum , only the 10th Mountain Division here in New .
Speaker 4York . There I served as a deputy operations officer for battalion and then I commanded two companies , one rifle company and one headquarters company before transitioning to law school in the National Guard .
Speaker 1So you're at the Fort Drum , probably the warmest location One can be stationed at in the United States .
Speaker 4It's the warmest Arctic unit that the United States Army has .
Speaker 1Yes , it is . We love Fort Drum , but we're not known here in Central New York for having balmy weather , and they're a little north of us . And then suddenly law school comes into play . How does that happen ?
Speaker 4Well , I always had a fascination with the law .
Speaker 4I always knew law school was going to come back into my life and in fact , going back to my days at Niagara University , one of the biggest decisions I had to make in my life was do I want to pursue a career in the Army , as an attorney to the judge at the general core , or abbreviated as our JAG core or do I want to serve as an infantry officer ?
Speaker 4And once again , my brother was an infantryman himself and those stories really related to me , and so I made a very difficult decision to go into the infantry instead of the legal career inside of the Army , once again , just being drawn to the opportunity there and the ability to serve our soldiers during these high conflict times during that era . And that was an opportunity . Ultimately , I knew I couldn't pass up , but I always knew that I was going to find my way back into the legal career field and attend law school , and the goal was always Syracuse . Law and Ford Drum served as a very natural transition point for us . My wife was already working at the Institute for Veterans and Military Families at Syracuse University .
Speaker 4Her career was where he deserved it to be at that point and we were looking at the subsequent moves from there on out , from Ford Drum , and we just simply enjoyed being back home , and so that was a logical transition point for me , transitioning into the National Guard and to pursue a degree at Syracuse Law and a master's degree at the Maxwell School .
Speaker 1So you were active duty and then how that works is active duty , is full time , just so we're using terms that people understand . That full time and then the US Army National Guard is something you can do while you have another career Correct , very good , and we'll get into that a little bit more as we talk today . So you graduated from Syracuse University , caldifla . We not only share a home county but we share a law school on the monitor there and I know because I knew you then you were active in veteran and military groups at the college and at the university . Did that sort of make it a more fulfilling experience to be able to tie the two together ?
Speaker 4Absolutely , kim .
Speaker 4I had a very easy transition into law school .
Speaker 4I assimilated with my classmates , you know , very quickly , but I couldn't help but feel like something was missing , and that thing that was missing was was my tie for the veteran community .
Speaker 4And so pretty early on my first year of law school I got involved with Syracuse University Student Veterans Association , which is all the student veterans on campus , and just the camaraderie and kind of being able to share the same difficulties that we were all experiencing there . And then , in addition , I was elected the president of Operation Veteran Advocacy at Syracuse College of Law , which is a student organization which focused their efforts on various veteran initiatives to improve veteran wellness within our community . I also served as a research assistant for the Institute for Veterans and Military Families during this time , focused on the Veteran to Politics program . That is a nonprofit , non-artisan initiative that offers a civics education for our veterans who are looking to pursue a career or at least a term in local politics . And the thought there is simple and that is , who better to lead our communities than our nation's veterans ? And so it was really a huge blessing to be part of that . I also served as the president of the National Security .
Speaker 2Student .
Speaker 4Association and served as a research assistant to the Honorable Judge James Baker at the Institute for Security Policy and Law at Syracuse Law , and so all of those experiences you know , put together a couple with my legal studies , really made the entire three-year experience there that much more meaningful to me and I built lifelong relationships through , you know , those various efforts .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think I mean there's a couple of important things there . One , law school doesn't have to be cookie cutter for people . You can find the things that really drive you to succeed and to give back and kind of create your own path there . And also that there are great opportunities whether you've had another career beforehand or you're coming straight through .
Speaker 4Absolutely , completely agree .
Speaker 1So did your prior experience as an officer in the Army help you in law school , absolutely .
Speaker 4You know , to someone who's not familiar with the military lifestyle , I think movies don't do justice . There's always like the movies we're running around in groups and like climbing ropes and things of that sort . You know , those exist to an extent . Like the military culture of Blacks American society , it's a very diverse workplace . It has very similar professional attitudes that you experience in civilian places and employment , just like here at Bond , and so that overall life experience and professional experience really transition nicely into the profession of law and a lot of the skills are the same . So for our listeners , lawyers have a very famous thing called the Blue Book . The Blue Book is what guides us in how to properly cite cases , statutes , regulations , court filings , scouting the articles and things of that sort .
Speaker 4The Army has ADP and ADRP 1-02 , which is operational terms and grant , and the same arguments exist about what's the right way to label this heavy weapons company that's mounted on vehicles as it does , and what's proper way to cite this case in this article or in this briefing .
Speaker 4In addition , we obviously have statutes , laws and regulations that we follow In the military . We have doctrine that we follow and then on the law side , we read scholarly articles , we attend training , we talk with our colleagues about what's the best way to employ the law to persuade on behalf of our clients In the Army . It's the same thing attending different professional development trainings , reading various scholarly articles , and what's the best way to skillfully employ the doctrine that's set forth in the Army to accomplish today's missions . Both the profession of law and the profession of arms is a combination of an art and a science , and the skills that go to really skillfully practicing one directly relates to the other , and those are things that really took with me . Well , the content may have been different , the skill set was the same that I noticed going into the college of law .
Speaker 1Did you tab your ADP the way you tab a blue book , of course . Okay , that's perfect , that's perfect . Well , we really wanted to have you back this year for the Veterans Day episode , because you joined us from Africa last year with a how many hour time difference Did we have ?
Speaker 4Well , eight An eight hour time difference last year .
Speaker 1So you were stationed there last year for a full year , so welcome home .
Speaker 4Thank you Good evening back .
From Military Service to Law
Speaker 1And for your service . So you finished active duty , went to law school and then law school ends and you get an opportunity and he went to Africa and I want people to know this . It's like a year . He did not have leave , he did not come back . He and his wife both made this commitment to the US Army . So it was the year after law school , even though you knew you had a job waiting for you , this was important to you . You were done with active duty . How did that deployment happen ?
Speaker 4Well , I think for I think first you hit it on the head and something I want to point out for our listeners that especially with dealing with veterans , it's not just the veteran that serves the veteran family , and I'm very blessed that Vanessa is as equally committed to this profession as I am . Just last night I told her hey , I'm sorry , I cannot make the Syracuse football game on Friday . I have to be at drill at seven o'clock on Friday night and I'm very fortunate that when those things come up she's like got it Understood . I'll text you updates .
Speaker 1She knows the APP . Yeah .
Speaker 4So it takes a special family to go and allow our nation's veterans to serve in the capacity that they did and to accomplish their mission . So thank you for pointing that out as well . And so how did that happen ? And so , for our listeners who may not be as familiar , so there's a active duty component to the military , which is what I originally served in , where that was my full time job . Then you have the National Guard and the reserves , which is a reserve component to the military , and that is your , your stereotypical one week in a month , two weeks a year type training to where you have a full time civilian employment , and yet , as a part of time commitment , you have a military service obligation , and so that's the role I was in at that time .
Speaker 4So I was a full time law student and I was serving in the National Guard part time , and during that time the unit was activated for deployment to Africa and so , temporarily , for a one year status , that reserve component was activated into the active force and was considered a full time force in order to complete the mission in Africa . And then , when we come back , that active component is brought back down to a National Guard or a reserve status to where we resume our part time duties and responsibilities , and my involvement with that is I was very simply very fortunate to be hired as the executive officer of the 1st Italian 69th Infantry Regiment , headquartered out of Manhattan , new York , and I was selected to serve in that role , and subsequently that unit was also tapped to complete the deployment to Africa , and so that's how I ended up on the Africa deployment and then came back here and now have dropped back down into a reserve status .
Speaker 1And you had to make that decision and you had to make the call to the firm to say hey , I know I'm supposed to start in September , but I'm going to go do Well .
Speaker 4first I had to talk with Vanessa .
Speaker 1Yes , I mean Ryan , clearly .
Speaker 4And so , yeah , after talk with Vanessa and Vanessa and I were both in what bond response was going to be . It was not a huge concern to us , but you know the transparency was needed and so I called Colin Leonard , who was on vacation with his family . They'll pick up the phone , of course . That that's just the type of meters we have here on , and I believe you that both isn't picked up the phone . And you know I explained the situation to him and he said wow , that's absolutely amazing , congratulations , that's a tremendous honor . And from right there I let out the biggest thigh of relief ever , because I knew the conversation was going to go fine . But that's how well the conversation went . He was nothing but congratulatory , really kind of taken back as the honor it was to have to serve in this capacity .
Speaker 4And then from there , the rest of the firm really kicked in as well . Once again , the wonderful Kelly Capose . What was right ? There by my side , immediately receiving an updated author letter that simply acknowledged my military commitment , and then , talking with Colin Leonard and Matt Wells as well , it turned into hey , go focus on your military service obligation for right now . When you come back , take care of yourself and your family , and then you let us know when you can come back .
Speaker 4And so with all the things I was juggling as a three-hour bar exam coming off and this upcoming deployment and that ball that was juggling was just completely taken out of the equation with a huge side of relief . And then on top of that , even while I was gone you know , ken , you had me on the podcast last year . That was absolutely amazing . You were communicating to me about potential roles here at Bond to make sure I had a good transition back . Other people coming and just checking out and saying how are you Right now home , and all of that , especially if we have employers listening on the podcast , all of that goes a long way . It really shows a lot of simple ways to just support the better community in the workplace .
Speaker 1We were cheering for you because you amazingly passed the bar exam . You knew all this was coming . You finished law school , you studied , took the bar exam and then got on an airplane , basically .
Speaker 4Yeah , I took the bar exam , darted back to Syracuse , made sure all my stuff was packed and I was gone . There was no break in there . I guess what was nice if I had to find a nice thing . But we were so focused on our mission in Africa I didn't think about the bar exam results until October . Perfect Then , because we're a Manhattan-based unit . We had a lot of attorneys that served in similar roles . Someone in the beginning of October said hey , you should find a larger bar results soon . That was the rudest thing ever because from there on out I couldn't help but check my email like 17 times a day , waiting for the entire month of October until they finally came in . But yeah , the bar results came in . They were successful and I was grandfathered into our recent celebration with the associates this year when we heard the results of our new associates passing the bar exam . That was fun .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right . We didn't want you to miss out . I mean , we toasted to you last year but you didn't know that because you're in Africa , so we thought we'd bring you into the celebration this year . So , even though you're ahead of them in years , we wanted you to still get that celebration when you got back . So do you think that there were things that you learned from that deployment that will help you in your career practicing law and serving clients ?
Speaker 4Absolutely , kim . Not only that deployment , but now I've been fortunate enough and I've been Afghanistan twice , iraq once , now Africa once , and those experiences are really valuable . We in America go into our daily routine . I think it's easy to take for granted the rights that we have and the privileges that we have in this country and our overall well-being of how we conduct our lives . And going across and seeing other parts of the world , you can see that that is something that is not a guarantee and that something that we need to protect and something that we cherish , even as just citizens of the United States . And so I simply don't take anything for granted .
Speaker 4I didn't take walking into the main hall every day while a student at Syracuse College of Law for granted . I surely don't take it for granted that I get the walkthrough one or two times a week , that I'm here at Syracuse every day to work with all these great people and all these great clients , to be able to practice law . So I'm just truly grateful for the opportunity I have on a daily basis here and I think the other part is in military , you're a client with the American people and that level of commitment to go and to perform your duties and responsibilities and your overall mission to the utmost extent in seeing how that's conducted as a team is important , and I try to bring that with me every day here at Bond to show our clients the same level of commitment that I would show as a service member and also working as part of a team here at Bond to provide the best legal representation possible .
Speaker 1That's fantastic . I mean , those are excellent points . It's a great perspective to have to , as you went from one stressful career to another . So that's a good perspective to
Balancing Military Service and Civilian Life
Speaker 1have . So you mentioned this , but you currently serve in the New York Army National Guard . You serve as an infantry officer . I think you're the operations officer for the 27th Infantry Brigade Combat Team , the 42nd Infantry Division , Headquartered here in Syracuse . Is that correct ? That is correct , and you have just a small number , maybe 4,000 soldiers that you oversee .
Speaker 4Yes , just a few .
Speaker 4So the 27th Infantry Brigade Combat Team is headquartered here , right in Syracuse .
Speaker 4We're out of Maddiedale For those familiar with Syracuse we don't write at the airport , we're just on the opposite side of the civilian terminal because we still need access to the same airspace and things of that sort .
Speaker 4So one of the tools that you take off to go down to Florida . But we're right there and in that role I currently serve as the operations officer , so that's equivalent to a COO role in the civilian workforce . And so , as a part-time service member , I oversee a staff consisting of full-time service members that work full-time for the New York Army National Guard and part-time service members that work part-time for the New York Army National Guard , and we are in charge of all operations that happened within the 27th Infantry Brigade Combat Team , whether it's happening literally right now as we're doing this podcast , the operations that are happening in the future , such as major training exercises that are being taken place in Africa , and various things in regards to the way ahead and the overall strategy of where we're going as a brigade . And so it is a time-consuming job . It falls between bonds and with serving as a patender in the New York Army National Guard .
Speaker 1I have to ask how do you balance this right ?
Speaker 4Yeah . So what I'm fortunate is that universally accepted amongst every rank and every organization within the New York Army National Guard is your priority one is yourself . You are no good to the organization if your overall well-being is not being maintained , and that includes your family , your friends and your faith . That is priority one in the eyes of the New York Army National Guard . Priority two is your civilian employment . That takes precedent over your service obligations to the New York Army National Guard Because , once again , if you're not taking care of yourself and dedicating yourself to your civilian employment , then you're not able to serve in any capacity to the New York Army National Guard . And then that third priority is your duties and responsibilities as a service member . And so I'm not going to lie and act like it's easy and it's not time-consuming , but whenever there's a conflict I remember those priorities .
Speaker 4I'm a husband , brother , son and friend . First I'm an attorney and then I'm an infantry officer and the New York Army National Guard . And then I think the last part that we're really fortunate , one of the outstanding support , to have that home . And as much as I work him and this is going to sound corny I don't feel like I work at all Because at the end of the day , I wake up and I do exactly what I want to do . I want it to wake up and have coffee with Vanessa , I want it to come here to bond and provide the best legal services possible for clients , and then tomorrow night I want to put on the uniform and go and report to drill . And so , as much work as it is , to me it's not Simply who I am is what makes me pick , and this is the life that I actually want .
Speaker 1I love that . That's fantastic , and I think that's sort of what everyone should aspire to , right ? Like , not every day is perfect at work . Not every day is exactly how you'd want it to be , but you understand , it's a privilege to be able to do the things you do and that there are things you chose that you want to do Absolutely Fantastic . And plus there's been this . So , and plus there's been that . Yes .
Speaker 4Always there to celebrate or always there to walk me through if they didn't go right forward . And Kim , I'm going to take over the podcast , but only temporarily . Okay , kim , you have been an amazing help . You have been phenomenal . I really appreciate all this support you've given me all the way from being a student to a summer and now back to an associate , and I communicated your efforts to the rest of the command team while we were deployed .
Speaker 4And it is with great pride that we flew an American flag in your honor , jeff , a small token of our appreciation . So thank you for the service that you've done . Oh , thanks , ryan , and I also owe a quick synopsis to the Department of Defense , and they absolutely agree , and therefore you are now officially recognized by the Department of Defense and the Patriotic Employer .
Speaker 1Well , thank you so much and as the kid of an Army veteran who was stationed at Fort Carson in Colorado , I really appreciate that a great deal . It was more than a pleasure to work with you all the time , ryan , and I'm so grateful for your service . Thank you , thank you . Well , I really want to say , ryan , thank you for your continued service , and I know you're doing a lot of pro bono also right now with your billable work as you figure out your practice group and settle in . So thank you for all of that as well , and I hope you'll come back and join us again on the podcast to talk about your client work as you develop your career here at Bond .
Speaker 4Anytime here . Anytime , Ken , I'm moving forward to it .
Speaker 1Thank you . Bond is grateful to all of our veterans and those who are still actively serving in the United States military . Thanks also to their families , because there is also a sacrifice on their part as well , and thank you to all who have served in US Armed Forces . Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond . If you're listening and have any questions for me , want to hear from someone at the firm , I have a suggestion for a future topic . Please email us at LegallyBondbskcom . Also , don't forget to rate , review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded . Until our next talk , be well .
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