In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond labor and employment attorney Hannah Redmond. Hannah talks about how she was able to create a practice that leverages her interest in both labor and employment law and litigation.
In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond labor and employment attorney Hannah Redmond. Hannah talks about how she was able to create a practice that leverages her interest in both labor and employment law and litigation.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond, chenek and King. I'm your host, kim Wolf-Price. In this episode we're speaking with Hannah Redmond, an associate in the Labor and Employment Department practicing out of Bond's Syracuse office. So it's sort of welcome back to the podcast, hannah. You were on a special episode, so we're excited to have you with us here today.
Speaker 2:Thanks, kim, I'm excited to be back.
Speaker 1:That's great. Well, this is fun because it's a full episode where we get to talk to you. I may have introduced you as a labor and employment associate and I said you were in our labor and employment group. That's a large department at this law firm and it's not homogenous, right.
Speaker 2:That's right, you're a very large department. We're very versatile.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly. So I'm hoping that today we can discuss your practice, which involves client counseling, litigation and more, to sort of show how different the practice really can be at the firm. Does that sound like a plan?
Speaker 2:Sounds great.
Speaker 1:Okay, we will probably get into some of that firm service and just touch on pro bono, since you already had the special episode, but we'll probably touch on that a little bit too Awesome, all right. So before we get into the lawyer side of our conversation, if it's okay, can we spend a few minutes talking about your background so that listeners can get to know you and whatever you'd like to share when you grew up family law school undergrad, whatever you'd like to share where you grew up family law school undergrad, whatever you'd like to talk about.
Speaker 2:Sure, so I work in the Syracuse office, in Bond's Syracuse office. I am from Syracuse, I was born and raised here, both of my parents are CPAs and my sister is a math major, and I am definitely the odd man out, as I don't have a single math bone in my body not a single one. That's why you're a lawyer is that. That's exactly why I'm a lawyer, although math has come to bite me a few times in this practice it makes its way on my desk.
Speaker 1:They trick us. There's math.
Speaker 2:There is, it's math delight. I'll say it's math delight. So I was kind of the odd man out and I ended up going to law school. I really never ventured far, even in undergrad and in law school. I went to Syracuse University for undergrad. I did do my freshman year at the University of Buffalo and then ended up transferring to SU as a sophomore and eventually going on to do my law degree at Syracuse as well. So I didn't go straight from undergrad to law school. I did take about two years in between and I'm really glad I did that, both for my personal life. I needed a break. I've been doing school my whole life. So it was really nice to have that two-year breather and it allowed me to plan financially for law school, which was a secondary benefit but really important as well.
Speaker 2:During that two-year period I did a brief stint at a digital marketing company here in Syracuse. I was a brand strategist and I was also bartending part-time. I really loved the marketing company. I met great people people I'm still friends with today but it wasn't the best fit for me. I didn't love the work itself, so I ended up bartending full-time, which, believe it or not, ended up being more financially lucrative as well. So I knew I'd wanted to go to law school. So that allowed me to kind of work toward that savings goal I had which would allow me to do so and, as luck would have it, that decision allowed me to meet my now husband. So you know, everything worked out.
Speaker 1:I think that's great. And so how did you get to bond? I mean, I know this answer. Is it weird when I ask you this question and I know the answer? But how did you get to bond?
Speaker 2:So I had a pretty traditional path to bond. I applied through the OCI process, which is the on-campus interview process through SU's College of Law. I did an on-campus interview initially, which then led to an invitation back for a second round interview at the firm. I met a whole bunch of people. It went well. I was fortunate enough to be invited to join the firm as a summer law clerk in gosh the summer of 2018. So that was after my second year of law school, and I spent that summer completing the summer law clerk program, rotating through all of the departments that Bond has and that ended up leading into a full-time offer for an associate position after completing law school, which I accepted, and the rest is history.
Speaker 1:Very good, yes, and so if you summered in 2018, that means you graduated in 2019 and the way things work in New York, that means early 2020,. You got admitted to the bar as a full practicing attorney. We take the bar in July and then just don't get admitted for a long time. So you started practicing as a lawyer and the whole world shut down, didn't it? That's right.
Speaker 2:It was not great timing, not ideal timing, so I joined the firm in September of 2019. I did so. We do a second longer rotation when you join as an associate, so it's a six month rotation through each of the firm's departments. That's the typical process for associates that aren't directly hired for a certain departmental position. And at the end of that six month rotation I landed on labor and employment and then, within days of selecting that department, I was told hey, so we're transitioning to a remote work arrangement. Grab some stuff head home.
Speaker 2:At the time, I think I grabbed one legal pad. I thought I was going home for like a week or two and we all know that's not how things turned out. But it was definitely not ideal timing to be joining a new department trying to get my sea legs, learn the. You know the labor and employment law itself make connections within the department. But in other ways it was very good timing because I'm very thankful that I wasn't in law school or taking the bar exam in the midst of COVID. So I guess that's the silver lining.
Speaker 1:I guess that's the silver lining, but I have to say that you know just you know watching your, your practice and how it's developed. I don't think you missed a beat. I mean it was great. You were really able to adapt and become really so integral to that department in the midst of all that chaos.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and that was in large part due to department leadership and firm leadership. I mean, everyone was fantastic about keeping us all connected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. I think we in some ways we all got a little closer even though we were far apart, because we were constantly appearing in each other's homes.
Speaker 2:Yes, my makeshift work area and my dining room of my apartment.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly right, Like we all sort of learned like oh no, she's home, now I can tell by the background.
Speaker 1:Kind of crazy. Oh well, thank you for giving us that background. It is a tradition on the podcast is to sort of start episodes that way. I think it's a great way for listeners to learn about the lawyers and the guests on the podcast. So thank you. Ok. So the labor and employment department it is two words that we shorten it to labor pretty frequently at the firm. Will you give us a brief overview of what the department does?
Speaker 2:Sure. So we're a very large department, we have a lot of members and it really runs the gamut in terms of what we do. We have a very wide spectrum of work, but the simplest way to think about it is that we really handle anything that deals with employees and employers, from pre-employment application process, onboarding, anything during employment, whether it's various types of leave, whether it's performance management, whether it's helping create job descriptions or determining whether or not employees are properly classified for wage and hour purposes and then, of course, we help with anything through separation, whether it's voluntary or involuntary, and then anything post-employment as well. So if a former employee brings, or threatens to bring, claims against an employer, that's a significant part of our practice as well.
Speaker 1:And there is a difference between labor and employment. Lies, isn't there?
Speaker 2:There is. So, like you said, we often just refer to ourselves as the labor department, but there really is a delineation between labor and employment. Employment refers to the relationship between an employer and an employee when there is not a labor union involved, and labor law refers to that extra layer that gets added in when there is a labor union representing the employees or some of the employees that work for an employer.
Speaker 1:And that's a whole other part of the practice helping in negotiations, whether it's contract renewals, new contracts, organizing whatever may be happening, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, so we also have a significant labor practice. Some people do more labor than employment, some people have a fair mix, some people do more employment than labor. But that is a significant portion of the practice labor negotiations, arbitrations, different counseling for employers with unionized workforces, for sure.
Speaker 1:And because, you know, as attorneys, we have so many rightfully so many roles of professional responsibility and there's conflicts and other issues. Bond is an employer side law firm when it comes to these issues, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, so at Bond, we, as a matter of policy, represent employers only. So you might hear us say that we're management side labor and employment attorneys, and that's what that means is that we don't represent employees, but we're always representing the employer or management.
Speaker 1:Okay, All right. So, with that said, what types of clients, industries or sectors does Bonds Labor Department work with?
Speaker 2:We have all sorts of clients in all sorts of industries and within the labor and employment group there are also many, many practice groups as well, for example, school law, higher education. We have an immigration practice. We do a lot of municipal work, so we represent a lot of towns, counties, fire departments, police departments. We have a lot of industrial and manufacturing clients. It really runs the whole spectrum. In fact, there was a case a few years ago Lou DiLorenzo, adam Mastrolio and I represented a labor union in its capacity as a private employer.
Speaker 1:So that was kind of a fun little twist.
Speaker 2:So it really runs the gamut. So we don't represent unions, we don't represent employees, we are management side. But this particular union had, when it was wearing its private employer hat, it had employees who were not represented that it directly employed, and so we represented a labor union in that case, which was kind of unique.
Speaker 1:So I think speaks highly of the firm to them, because you're always on the opposite side of labor unions, and for someone to say, hey, but you're the lawyers I'd want as an employer, that's pretty nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a very interesting, it was very cool arrangement.
Speaker 1:Very cool. So I guess, with all that you've been talking about, how it's pre-employment onboarding during employment, post-employment onboarding during employment, post-employment Is client counseling, then working with these employers. Is that a big part of the practice?
Speaker 2:It's an enormous part of the practice. It's perhaps the biggest part of the practice. Even when we're in litigation and we're preparing for an arbitration or a hearing, you're constantly counseling clients about strategy, risk, next steps. How do I approach XYZ situation? How best do I convey this information to an employee?
Speaker 1:It's really the backbone of the labor and employment practice is counseling, so it really must develop pretty strong relationships between the attorneys and the clients.
Speaker 2:We do. We're very fortunate. We have a lot of long-term clients and clients that we work with fairly extensively and through those relationships you really get to know a client's business. You get to know the employees who work in certain roles. We work very closely with human resources professionals. We work very closely with different members of clients' leadership teams and those kinds of relationships really help us tailor our advice to the needs of the particular client. And because we get to see the client's inner workings, if you will, from one case to the next or from one question to the next, we really do get a nice opportunity to understand the business, what the particular challenges or intricacies of that client's operations in business are, and that allows us to give the best advice that we can for them.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic and it's such an important part. I feel like you can't learn in law school that that's going to be part of what practice is like.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's the fun part, you get to see all of these different businesses, all of these different industries. You get to help come up with creative solutions that might not work in one employment setting but work really well for a different employer. So you're always trying to find that sweet spot between compliance with the labor law and also a workable solution, workable path forward for the client and its particular business needs.
Speaker 1:Right, because that helps fuel our economies and all of the markets where we are and all the markets where our clients are.
Speaker 1:That's right, all right. So your practice more specifically. So there may have been talk years ago that you were interested in litigation when you were in law school, if I knew you then and that's true, you still are. So that's what's really interesting to me about your practice and others in the labor department, because you have client counseling you still are. So that's what's really interesting to me about your practice and others in the labor department because you have client counseling, you also have a litigation component and then what we call alternative dispute resolution, like arbitration, mediation. So people might not know that labor lawyers also litigate. So will you talk a little bit about your practice in that mix?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. You are correct. I came to the firm thinking that I was going to land in the litigation department and then, at the end of the longer six-month rotation, when I joined the firm full-time as an associate, it turns out I had landed elsewhere and that I had really fallen in love with labor and employment. And it's exactly for the reasons that you just mentioned, kim, is that there is such a significant litigation aspect to the practice of labor and employment law.
Speaker 2:If you choose, some people gravitate toward other aspects of labor and employment, but a lot of us do have a pretty significant litigation and alternative dispute resolution practice, and my practice does tend to have a pretty heavy litigation and administrative proceeding focus, which is my favorite part of my practice, is that I kind of get to have the best of both worlds. So I do spend a lot of time litigating employment related cases, anything from discrimination, harassment and retaliation claims. I do quite a bit of wage and hour claims, class action claims. I relatedly spend a lot of time defending employers before administrative agencies such as the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and the Division of Human Rights. We also represent clients before various other state agencies such as the Department of Labor and other arms of state government, and when I'm not working on those matters, I'm doing the counseling we just talked about, and I can't fail to mention labor negotiations are becoming more and more a part of my practice, as are arbitrations, so dipping my toes more and more in the labor area.
Speaker 1:Well, and for our listeners, that's because labor tends to go up and down based on other factors like Washington DC and national trends, and so that's why I think many attorneys at the firm haven't hadn't yet, except the last few years, been that active in labor like really seeing it, but more and more now you are all having that be part of your practice.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's right, it's hugely. It being labor is hugely influenced by politics and who's in the White House, so that's right by politics and who's in the White House.
Speaker 1:So that's right. It kind of ebbs and flows, yeah, and the national newspapers are picking up on some of those trends, so if listeners are interested, they should pay attention there as well. I was going to ask you what a typical day was like, but I don't know how you would have one. But do you want to try to answer that question?
Speaker 2:I can try. I don't know if there's really truly a typical day Is that why you like it. I do like it. Yeah, I mean some days. That's the frustration, but it also keeps it interesting. I typically try to plan my days and then I often find that the day has reached an end and I have diverted wildly off path, but a typical day.
Speaker 2:I do quite a bit of legal writing, so I often have either briefs to write or position statements to prepare for submission to one of those administrative agencies that I mentioned typically the Division of Human Rights or the EEOC.
Speaker 2:And then, as your day goes and the phone rings or you get a client question. You know you might have interruptions to the writing process or the research process, but typically I go. You know I start every day with a to-do list. I have a bigger ticket item, whether it's a brief or some other sort of writing or policy drafting, and then a lot of the day does end up being client counseling, questions from employers. Employers often have questions that arise throughout their workday and they're not often the kinds of questions where you can say, hey, I'll get back to you in a few days or a week. A lot of times it's hey, I have this employee who's asked me this question and it's kind of time sensitive, or an employee just engaged in some sort of misconduct and we want to know how to act, and you can't say, well, you know, just stick a pin in that misconduct for a week and we'll get back to you.
Speaker 2:You know you kind of got to you got to get on the phone right then and there, so no such thing as really a typical day, but I guess it's typical and that you can plan for it to be atypical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I do think there is something about that in the law that makes it fun, frustrating sometimes, but I kind of like that at the firm. What I think my day is going to look like very rarely is what my day looks like.
Speaker 2:Me too. I remember during the interview process for different law firms in the area and it wasn't a bond interview, but I remember saying that was what drew me to the practice of law that I liked that it was going to be a job where it wasn't the same thing every single day and it wasn't a copy and paste type of situation. And I remember one of the more senior attorneys interviewing me said there's going to be a time where you wish you could copy and paste once in a while.
Speaker 2:And I'm not kidding. I think of that conversation at least once a week. I'm like I really wish I could copy and paste the answer to the question Just for five seconds here. I really wish I could copy and paste the answer to the question Just for five seconds here. No, I think that's right. Is that the constant? The lifelong learning is kind of the fun part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the sort of having to keep track of it all. There's something about it. It drives a certain sector of us to be interested.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, bond's Labor Department, you're doing all of that in practice in direct client service, but then we have a strong tradition at the firm and I think the labor department is a really big part of this of providing general information to our clients and others through our information memos and our webinars, and I know you're a frequent author, so why is that important?
Speaker 2:This is a in general. We work really, really hard to stay current what seems like an endless stream of updates, legislative changes, amendments, new laws coming out from the state. New York has been really active for I mean decades at this point in terms of legislating in this area, and so we work really, really hard to stay current and the tradition and the practice that we have of making sure that we're current, providing information memos, making sure we're giving webinars and getting that information out to our clients, helps-minded and proactive about making any necessary changes to their internal practices, making sure that we're avoiding any unintended labor violations just really trying to keep everyone up to date.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it also it must, I'm guessing, sort of help you grow as an attorney, maybe get a little more confidence, know that you're staying on top of it. Would you say that that's actually part of developing as an attorney at the firm?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Both. Information memos, putting together presentation slides, starting to actively present at those kinds of presentations is one of the very best ways that I learned and that I think my colleagues who are fellow associates would say that they also learned the law itself, because there is such an enormous body of law and when you're asked to write an information memo or help put together a slide deck on a particular topic, you really do get to do that deep dive into the substance of the law and it's one of the best mechanisms for learning the law. And then, like you said, you get confidence through doing that and really being a subject matter expert so that when you get the question you're not unsure of yourself.
Speaker 1:You're like no, I've looked at this. I understand that I can. I got this. I've spent a lot of time with this and then you get. I know you've been picked. Your articles have been picked up by JD Supra, which is another publication, so that's got to feel good too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's nice, you know I think my most recent article was on legislative changes to the general obligations law that impacted certain provisions and settlement agreements, which doesn't sound very juicy, but I can't tell you how many times my phone has rang to consult on that question. So you get to talk. You know, I get to talk to people in other offices as a result of this work too, so a lot of different connections come from these info memos and other ways that we provide info.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. Well, with all of that right, the hours have to be pretty long, sometimes, not every day, but sometimes and the stakes are often high right, like all aspects of the law, the thing on the line whether it's a negotiation, a termination, bringing an employee on board, an administrative action at litigation it's critical to that client and their business. So how do you keep motivated to keep going through the long hours?
Speaker 2:It helps that I genuinely like the work. I find the subject matter genuinely interesting I really do and, like we said, the lifelong learning, the constantly changing landscape. It's sometimes frustrating, but it's also fun to track the changes, see what's new, understand the myself that the busy workload is a compliment and that it's going to make me a better lawyer. So I like to think of the work as the best path to a successful career. You know, I think it'll serve me in the long run. That's kind of how I get myself through the long days.
Speaker 1:I guess that's why they call it the practice of law right. Like you just keep getting better, that's right. Yeah Well, I think law students don't realize that labor employment law has this hybrid litigation, client counseling sort of component. What are some of the skills labor lawyers need that students maybe should focus on?
Speaker 2:I think the basics will serve everyone well. Kind of a boring, not so juicy answer, but I think the basics, regardless of what practice you want to go into, they're going to serve you well. So get good at reading comprehension, get good at writing, get good at distilling complicated, maybe dense, information into an easily digestible paragraph or two. The ability to communicate effectively really can't be overemphasized. That's really really important. And then probably listening, listening is so, so, so important. You have to understand what your client is asking you, even if they don't know what they're asking you.
Speaker 2:And sometimes they don't, so you have to be really good at listening, issue spotting and then trying to offer creative solutions that both meet the needs of the client while ensuring that they're in compliance with the law.
Speaker 1:I think that is a critical component. You have to be able to listen. You do. It's really, really important and sometimes when you're rushed it's hard, or when the client's rushed, but you have to find the time to make that happen. And I love those answers, it's not boring.
Speaker 2:I think that's the right answer, but I don't know how novel it is.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's important and something that every all of us need to be reminded of, not just law students who might be thinking about it, but all of us kind of have to remember that it's our professional responsibility to like stop, to take the time to make sure we're listening. So I think that's important. Well, before I let you go, I wanted to ask. You were on our pro bono special episode not too terribly long ago, but I know you have all of this to do, but you're also active in firm committees and in pro bono work, so want to talk a little bit about what you're involved with.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I just recently joined the recruiting committee and before that I served as a department coordinator for the summer law clerks and new associate trainees for a number of years and I just passed the baton on that. But I joined the recruiting committee in exchange, so it's still staying involved with that aspect of firm service. I also am a member of the Women's Initiative Committee and the Pro Bono Committee.
Speaker 1:So that means you get to see me a lot. I think about these committees.
Speaker 2:That's right. It's one of my favorite parts.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and so you also do have. I don't know if listeners will know this, but federal courts and other courts can appoint people, ask lawyers to be Pro bono counsel, and you've done a couple of trials in the Northern District of New York and you actually have a matter now that you're working on. Is that right?
Speaker 2:That's right, so I have. I think I'm on my second Northern District representation as appointed pro bono counsel, the first resolved in 2021 or 2022, I believe, and I'm active in my second one now. So we're not trial ready yet, but eventually we'll get there.
Speaker 1:Well, you're only going to have. You know, next month is only your fifth year reunion from law school, so that's pretty good. It's crazy. I can't believe it. I feel, so in full disclosure. Listeners and I may have had to sit through one of my classes at one point, but it's crazy. I feel like we were just sitting at that table in the law school.
Speaker 2:Me too. Time has truly flown by. I know people say that all the time, but I'm not one of those people, and it's true.
Speaker 1:It's true, it's very true. So, with all that service and the pro bono does that sort of help you round out your practice.
Speaker 2:Definitely the pro bono practice is different than labor and employment. They're not labor and employment actions that I've been appointed in, so it's always nice to break things up with a little bit of different subject matter. But also the skills and the client counseling and the getting to meet with a client face to face and the procedural aspects of litigation, regardless of the subject matter, are skills that translate into my practice pretty seamlessly. So while it's both important community service it's important to do as a member of the bar. Roboto has also for sure supported my practice as a labor and employment attorney.
Speaker 1:And you're getting to work with a pretty fantastic George Lowe, who was a United States magistrate judge in the Northern District of New York and a former member at Bonchankin King.
Speaker 2:That's right. There's no better mentor, and I've been lucky enough to get to work with Judge Lowe on both of my pro bono matters so both the first and the second and he mentored me through my first deposition. He mentored me through my first appellate argument at the Second Circuit. So it's been it really has been a tremendous opportunity. Yeah, it's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much, hannah, for joining us today. You should be careful writing those info memos, because we do special episodes, so you make it the call that says you know I can't. I've been duly warned. You've been duly warned, exactly. You're on notice. But it's always a pleasure to speak with you and, honestly, I'm just truly enjoying watching your career really take off. You're a fantastic lawyer, so thanks so much. I hope you'll come back to the podcast soon.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me, Kim.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legallybond at bskcom. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well.
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