In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond business restructuring, creditors' rights and bankruptcy attorney Andrew Rivera. Andrew, who is the Summer Coordinator for Bond's Summer Law Clerk Program, shares advice for law students on how to make the most out of their summer law jobs.
In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond business restructuring, creditors' rights and bankruptcy attorney Andrew Rivera. Andrew, who is the Summer Coordinator for Bond's Summer Law Clerk Program, shares advice for law students on how to make the most out of their summer law jobs.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Schenick King. I'm your host, kim Wolf-Price. Today we're talking with Andrew Romero, an attorney in Bond's Syracuse office. Andrew practices in our business restructuring, creditors' rights and bankruptcy group. Andrew was also serving as the summer coordinator for Bond's Summer Associate or Summer Law Clerk Program, and we asked him to join us for this special episode to share advice with all the law students out there on making the most of their summer law jobs. Hi, andrew, thanks so much for coming back and joining us.
Speaker 2:Hi Kim, and no problem. Happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Always good to talk to you and really do appreciate you coming in. I think it's timely that we have this conversation, don't you think?
Speaker 2:I think so, especially because we just had our summer law clerks start about a week ago.
Speaker 1:Exactly. We may have given them this inside review before we gave it to everybody else, all right, so it's been a while since we spoke on the podcast, so would you mind talking a little bit about yourself, giving us a little bit about your background either, where you grew up, undergrad, law school, family, whatever you think you'd like to share?
Speaker 2:Sure, so I'm originally from Poughkeepsie, New York, where I grew up, and then I went to undergrad at the university at Albany and I took a year off to start a career before I decided I wanted to go back to law school. So I went to Albany Law and then after law school I started with Bonchun and King as a first-year associate.
Speaker 1:That's great, so you were the coordinator for our summer program, but you did not participate in our summer program.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is correct.
Speaker 1:You spent many years helping out with it, which we totally appreciate. All right. So before we get into the advice for summer law clerks or summer associates so I say that because here at Bond we use the term summer law clerks, but I think a lot of law firms use summer associates as the way they identify the individuals who are current law students, typically the summer after their second of three years of law school, who come and learn about the law firm, practice, do a little bit of well. They don't practice because they certainly can't do that, but they work under the lawyers, the firm, to learn a little bit about us and we learn a little bit about them to see if maybe they're right to join us after graduation. But before we get into all of that, I gave the name of your practice group business restructuring, creditors rights and bankruptcy. So what does an attorney who practices in that practice group do?
Speaker 2:So it's really three different things. So when I go to dinner parties and things like that and people find out I'm an attorney, they always say what kind of law do you do? And I say I'm a restructuring lawyer and I get some puzzling looks. Not many people know what that is but, to put it simply, what I do is I assist my clients with restructuring their assets and liabilities. That can be in court or out of court with creditors' rights. It's exactly what it sounds like you have a customer and you send an invoice and maybe you don't get paid from your customer and creditors have rights and I assist them with maximizing their recovery for goods and services.
Speaker 2:And the last piece is the bankruptcy piece, which we do a lot of and talk about fun topics at dinner parties. Most attorneys don't know a lot about bankruptcy, let alone lay people. But what we primarily do at our firm is Chapter 11 cases and we represent creditors and debtors in all sorts of different types of cases, from fraud and Ponzi cases to mass tort cases like Purdue and some of the diocese cases that you see in the news to your regular commercial and retail cases shopping malls, bakeries, nursing homes, all types of people.
Speaker 1:So I think I remember a little bit from that class in law school but from working with all of you in your practice group. It's a combination of client counseling, transactional work and litigation all rolled in one right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say transactional and litigation focus, not quite 50-50, but I like to think of it as kind of like the last generalist practice area where we deal with its convergence of labor property law, some M&A, commercial litigation and more. It's just everything wrapped up in one case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it seems to me that the reason we call it restructuring a lot is that it's really, in the end, about business solutions. That practice.
Speaker 2:Right, right. So a lot of clients that give us a call, they're having issues, financial distress, and we're really trying to find a way to make their one successful business successful again.
Speaker 1:That's great, all right. Well, thank you very much for that and giving us that perspective. So I guess it's time to be on to advice for the law students out there in their summer jobs. So we all know they're probably nervous. They may have never worked a professional job before, or this is a career change and they've done something totally different before. So, andrew, is there one word or sentence that might sum up what summer associates need to?
Speaker 2:do. It's hard to really boil it down to one thing, but if it truly is one word, I would use the word communicate, or communication but also be proactive is another one, but we'll talk about a lot of other strategies to help succeed in the summer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a big part of it is not let the summer happen to you, right?
Speaker 3:Let it just happen.
Speaker 1:That's where that proactive comes in. All right, so you mentioned communication and it's certainly a critical in all aspects of legal practice. But when we talk about it for summer associates, basically what are we talking about when you say communicate?
Speaker 2:Well, the main source of assignments that you're going to get over the summer are going to come from older associates or partners and you need to speak with them in a direct, communicative way to make sure that you're on the same page in receiving an assignment. So, for example, an attorney might pop in. They want your help on something. They want a motion to lift the automatic stay, which is a bankruptcy buzzword, very popular bankruptcy issue. But a law student might not have any idea what the automatic stay is and effective communication would be asking some follow-up questions. Like I'm not familiar with what an automatic stay is, can you point me to where I could find more about that so I could further help with this assignment? So make sure that you understand the assignment and that way you can deliver a work product that's going to make you look good in the end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great advice and you said the word. But, like, part of communication is asking questions and not being afraid to do that, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Right and there really is no. I hate to say this, but it is true. Most of the time there are no dumb questions, and if you really have a question that you're too intimidated to ask right then in the moment, you can always follow up later. An assignment's not usually due in five minutes, so within your deadline. If you come up with questions the next day after you had some time to think about it and you still have that question, that's the time when you should follow up and get an answer to make sure you're on the right track.
Speaker 1:And part of that is going to your resources and communicating with them. And who might some of those people be?
Speaker 2:So it'll vary from what type of firm. Some firms are really small and you might have different types of resources. Other firms are really large, but the advice that I like to give is first start with your peers. So if you have a very basic question like dress code or something else throughout the summer, you could start with asking one of the other summer law clerks or summer associates. If you need a little bit more of an advanced answer, I would. The very first person I would go to is your administrative assistant, Absolutely Out at our firm. They know everything. So what I say is that they have the institutional knowledge. So anything that you want answered, they're a good resource to go to in the first instance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and so I guess maybe we should divert for just a second. Because you mentioned administrative assistants, what is the importance of developing a relationship with your administrative assistant or the other folks who work with attorneys, paralegals or other support staff, even starting in your summer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's critically important to figure it out. Most people, when they start law, have never worked with an assistant before. Some have never had a professional job outside of law school, so it's all new. But they have been here for a long time. They've worked with many attorneys and it takes time to figure out how to work together. They have their job, you have your job, but when you work together the legal product becomes so much better and more efficient and you could focus more of your time and energy into billing hours, which is how us as a law firm brings in revenue.
Speaker 2:But that could start off small, like getting to know them what they like outside of work, figuring out how, when you're a really young lawyer, and certainly over the summer, there are a lot of things that are going to take you longer to do and you should probably figure out how to do those things. But for some simple things they can help you, like entering your time and figuring out issues with your IT, like your computer or webcam problems or who to talk to when you're fixing a table of contents in a motion for summary judgment you're drafting or something like that. They could probably figure it out in five minutes when it could take you 30 minutes of contents. In a motion for summary judgment you're drafting, or something like that, they could probably figure it out in five minutes when it could take you 30 minutes, you know. So those little efficiencies are where they help the most.
Speaker 1:And they help you when you know all of the, not just the person you're working with, but you need to get in to see a certain partner and you can't find them. They know their schedule right, so get to know them. And you mentioned this one curly quotes or straight quotes which ones do? They like, but it matters right.
Speaker 2:It really does. They can help you find a specimen document if you want to start off with a form or if you want to see what kind of style of writing the assigning partner has or likes certain documents drafted. But at your point, if there is I don't think anyone here is scary, but the extent there's a scary partner, senior partner, corner office or whatever and you don't want to approach him when he's on the phone or extremely busy, that's when you talk to their admin or have your admin talk to their admin and find out a pocket of time where you can approach them and ask your questions.
Speaker 1:That's great, it's great advice, so important though, right Like obviously be nice to everyone, right, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:It'll come back. First of all, if you have issues with your admin or other staff, it probably will come up in your reviews, which maybe we'll talk about later. But you want to give a good impression, and treating people nicely and with respect is going to go a long way.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. Thank you All right. So I guess we should talk about the work part of this right. So doing work, getting assignments, that's a big part of the summer. The work summer associates do it's really the best way for attorneys to get to know them, isn't it? The?
Speaker 2:work summer associates do. It's really the best way for attorneys to get to know them, isn't it? Yeah, so it's really how you're graded throughout the summer. Right, so you have good grades. You did great in your interview. That gets your foot in the door, but having a good summer and delivering good work product consistently is going to be what gets you the offer at the end of the summer.
Speaker 2:So definitely focus on the things that you can control. I can speak for our firm. There are research assignments and then sometimes you're drafting motions or contracts. You will get work that is similar to what a first-year associate gets and nobody's expecting you to be the next great legal mind in your first 10 weeks at the firm and drafting amicus briefs and things like that. But you are expected to control the things that you can control, for example, typos and clear, concise writing in grammar. Those are the things that you can control. So when you're done drafting something, always take a couple of minutes or however long it takes to proofread what you're submitting, because after reading something a bunch of times as you're drafting it, your eyes could glaze over and miss things. So if you just take those couple of minutes to do one last proofread before submitting it. You could improve your work quality.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and if it's the right kind of document, go to your administrative assistant and say, hey, can you proof this for me?
Speaker 2:Yes, they're there to help, and those are the things that they can definitely help with.
Speaker 1:And I think that the point you're making right. It's the thing you can control, but it's also the thing that more junior either law clerks or associates that's what more senior folks depend on them for is making sure the citations are right, that the grammar is good, that there are no typos. It's that tightening up piece that that's what you're supposed to help with.
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So what are some sort of tips from you for handling assignments?
Speaker 2:So the number one would be to be open to receiving them. Have your door open. You know people will pop in and just come in and say, hey, do you have five minutes? And they'll start talking to you about a legal issue. They might call you, they might email you ahead of time. They might go through an associate that they work with if it's coming from a partner for them to come give you an assignment. But be open to receiving the assignment and don't say no. If you could control it, say yes, but or yes. And if you have multiple deadlines, that you might be juggling. And that goes back to what we said in the beginning, which is communicate. That's what we mean by communicate. They say I need this by Wednesday, but you have another assignment that's due Wednesday. Explain that to them, say I'd love to help you with this, but I'm dealing with this other deadline. Is there any flexibility? Or should I go back to the first attorney and talk to them about it? And most of the times, the deadlines that you're given over the summer are flexible. It's not like there's a filing deadline and they're relying on you as the last degree of defense to get this done on time. So you're important to the process, but keep in mind that most deadlines you get are somewhat flexible. So that would be number one.
Speaker 2:The second thing we kind of touched on it before is make sure you understand the assignment. Ask questions like what format would you like? Would you like a memo? Would you like bullet points? Would you like an email with some case law, with some parentheticals, email with some case law with some parentheticals. And what I find useful in understanding the assignment is taking notes while they're talking to you about the issue and what they need, and then try parroting it back to them, repeating back what they say to you and put your understanding on it to make sure that both of your understandings of what they're looking for is the same. And that will help when you're a day or two into the assignment and you know you're on the right track. And then also I touched on this earlier which is the last thing was, if you have a couple of days or a week to do an assignment, take the time. If you have questions, ask the questions and make sure that what you're delivering is a good final finished product.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's a good point. You made a couple of good ones, especially at the end, to make sure it's a good product, something you'd be proud to turn in right. Don't rush it and ask those follow up questions. I can't tell you, andrew, the number of times people have said, well, I don't want to go, bother the person, but it's not a bother, because we want you to get it right, right, and we want it to be right. So that's, it's a communication, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Yep. And it won't stop with really every lawyer, and it's a continuation from your summer to your 40th year in practice. I I'm convinced that it'll always be this way to the practice of law.
Speaker 1:I think so too. That's why we call it a practice. I'm convinced that it'll always be this way. It's the practice of law. I think so too. That's why we call it a practice. Right, and that's it. And also I think it goes back to here using your resources, if you're really stuck or if you're really not sure all those people that are around you that you mentioned before, starting with your peers or the junior associates or whomever else go talk to them. Great, yeah, it takes a minute, I think, but then people can get into it. So we just have to. I feel like there's not enough times we can say if you have a deadline and you haven't communicated, you need another one. That deadline matters, right, you have to meet that. It's an expectation, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It's an expectation and it's important. And also some attorneys will give you an assignment and not specify a deadline. You should ask for one for a couple of reasons. Number one they might not have realized that they didn't give you a deadline. But also it keeps you and your work schedule organized in a way, so you know if you, if you, don't have a deadline on one assignment and then you get a second assignment that is more time sensitive, you might end up juggling multiple work assignments and it's just better to have clear, defined guidelines for your work assignments. But also this goes back to things you could control and it's a reflection of your time management skills and your ability to handle multiple tasks, which is ultimately what we look for in young attorneys at Bond and really what I imagine most law firms are looking for. So your ability to take in work assignments and meet the deadlines that were set is a huge component of your success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Any legal employer wants to know that you can handle what's going to be coming at you. You'd mentioned briefly reviews or, however, feedback. You know there's a little bit of something. It's not such a formal process as it is when people are, you know, full-time employees. But if you do all those things right, if you meet deadlines, if you, you know, try to control for typos, if you ask about the formatting, that means you can have a really good conversation with positive feedback, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, and feedback is important and I know that everyone wants it, but it's also important to know that not all attorneys are great teachers and sometimes they don't realize that they're giving. Feedback is important and it's okay to ask for feedback, but also there are other ways to get feedback. You can look at the final product that's delivered to the client. Or I know in our firm we save new versions of documents so you could run a red line and see the changes that were made. You could follow up in a week or two when you see that person in the elevator or in the kitchenette and say, hey, what did the client end up deciding to do with this issue? Or that research makes sense or really anything to elicit some kind of feedback.
Speaker 2:And I also find that sometimes not receiving feedback is a good thing. It means you did a good job. And throughout the summer here we do have set times in the middle of the summer and then again at the end of the summer for a more formal feedback process, and that mirrors closely what we do for associates. We have the end of the year review process, so that's a period of time where you get more formal feedback and we send out messages to all of the attorneys that you've worked with and ask them for feedback, so you will get it. But if you're craving more than that or you want a little bit more reassurance, feel free to find ways to ask for it.
Speaker 1:Right, so we have those evaluations. But if you're looking for day to day feedback here or really anywhere where you're working with lawyers, please don't take it personally when they don't stop and have time for that, because sometimes they just don't have time or they're not thinking about it, so no one should read too much into that. So you think Right, right.
Speaker 1:All right. So the summer is a good chance, I would say, to observe how attorneys work and the legal process. Chance, I would say, to observe how attorneys work and the legal process. So it may sound simple, but should summer associates pay attention to, like, the style of how people work, the time people are in the office, how matters develop? Is this a period where they can kind of observe that? Is it a discovery phase for them?
Speaker 2:I think that observation is like one of the most valuable tools that you could use to learn from older and more experienced attorneys. You will have opportunities to shadow here. You could go to court with them, go to client events, just simply sit in on conference calls with opposing counsel or with clients and you can learn how attorneys phrase certain things, how they pause on the phone to elicit a response small things like that and if you're not paying attention to it, you can miss it. But that's a huge part of how we learn as lawyers is we learn from other lawyers. So it's, in my opinion, a huge aspect of learning throughout your summer is observe around you. When are the other attorneys coming into the office? How are they interacting with their admin? What kind of assignments are they asking their admin to do for them? How do they interact with other attorneys in the firm and externally and paralegals? Those things are very important to learning how to succeed here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's great advice, and great advice for anyone right. We started as an apprenticeship model profession and that's why we call it a practice Right, because you're always trying to get better, just like an athlete would watch tapes or, you know, watch practice like breaking down the film.
Speaker 1:Yes, breaking down Exactly. It's kind of you get to do that a little bit in real time to see how other people are doing it, and then you can figure out how that works for you. I think that's great advice. All right, so one more last topic. Everyone's least favorite word, I think, when you're talking to law students besides final exam, is networking. Networking within your firm or your office is really important over the summer, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I think it's very important is really important over the summer, isn't it? I think it's very important. So we do a lot of fun things over the summer. There are a lot of happy hours or get togethers outside of work, and I think that this is one of the more underrated ways to generate more assignments at work. So, for example, we had a welcome reception on the first day for our summer law clerk.
Speaker 2:And I stress to them you know, socialize, meet partners, ask them what they do, because once they start talking about what they do, it gives you an opportunity to find things that you might find interesting or not and say, hey, I'd like to experience that. I'm rotating through this practice area or department, but if you have anything interesting that you would need some help on, I'm available for assignments. And when attorneys can put a face to your name, everyone gets emails ahead of time that we have summer law clerks coming get your assignments together. But when an attorney meets you in person and sees that you're interested in their area of law or just in getting assignments in general, it gives them that extra motivation, that kick to give you an assignment and follow through and perhaps give you some feedback and if you do a nice job. You might get some more follow-up assignments and be able to follow the case or matter along.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great, I mean, I think that's really important. So it's networking with the attorneys and, of course, the staff, as we've mentioned, and getting to know them. But it's also, if you happen to have, like our summer class, a whole class of people, a group of people. It's important to get to know them too, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So your class becomes somewhat of like I started with eight associates. Some of us are still at the firm and there's this camaraderie where you could go to that person and talk to them about anything when it comes to the firm. So they're going through the same process you are. They could be a resource to you and you could be a resource to them. And I find it very helpful to start a chat. We have teams, but I'm sure most firms have some form of a chatting application and create a group chat and talk about things, talk about assignments, talk about I mentioned dress code earlier, but it's actually serious.
Speaker 2:Everyone has that question right. So we're going to a firm event. All the summer law clerks are invited. What do I wear? That type of question still comes up for me in pretty much every event I go to. So questions like that are great for the group chat. Or there's a question that you might not want to go to your admin. Yet you start with your summer law clerk. So they are, like I said, going through the same process as you and it's helpful to form some friendships there.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and this is all important, because the law can be stressful, it can be tough, but it's based on relationships, so it's important to build those, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I mentioned earlier that one of the you know the biggest grade you're getting over the summer is your work assignments. But also, I think, an underrated aspect of how to succeed during your summer law clerk position is to get people to like you. And that's not to say you have to be on or like the most interesting person in the room. Just be yourself and be interested and show that you want to be there, because, ultimately, what you're here for, hopefully, is auditioning to be a first-year associate, and what I think we all want, and what you guys should want as summer law clerks, is to like the people you work with. Right, we spend a lot of time together in the office working together, so to the extent that you like each other, it makes things a little bit easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. You want to be able to count on each other, right? That, like you're going to get your part done, I'll get my part done. And and, like you said, be yourself, right, don't try to be someone else. Don't try to, like you know, bring your whole self to work. But I think it is important to be that dependable person. Right, I'll say it're just a bunch of nerds, we're lawyers, right, we're interested in this stuff. So we want people who are curious and interested in it too and who want to have conversations about it and who are really interested in doing good work. Right, so we also will talk about sports and other things, and that'll come right. Those types of relationships will come. As you're working with people, you know, you'll like learn a little bit about each other, and that's what makes it interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely those are. You know, the water cooler conversations are important and the small talk and elevator up and that all helps putting a face to the name, like I mentioned earlier. So all of those little things are helpful.
Speaker 1:All right, so any sort of additional words of advice before we sign off?
Speaker 2:I would just keep in mind that while 10 weeks seems like a long time, it goes by very fast. So remember, you know the reason why you're here. Try to gain as much experience as you can, put your best foot forward, because before you know it, you're pivoting and you're going back to finish your last year of law school or, if you're a 1L law clerk, you're heading into your 2L year, which is, for many, a really tough time. So enjoy it and try to get what you can out of the experience.
Speaker 1:That's great. Thank you so much, andrew. Thanks for joining us today and for the fantastic advice. Also, thank you for all of the really great firm service that you do for Bond with this summer class and in so many other ways, for saying yes so often when we call on you. So thank you very much.
Speaker 2:I hope you'll come back soon and maybe talk about financial restructuring. I would be happy to do that.
Speaker 1:All right, terrific, thank you. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm, have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legallybondbskcom. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well.
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