An Interview with Jennifer Clayton, Attorney Well-Being

In this Mental Health Awareness Month recap episode, Kim speaks with Jennifer Clayton, LMSW, Well-Being Program Manager for the New York State Bar Association (NYSBA), about what burnout really looks like in the legal profession and why meaningful well-being goes beyond surface-level fixes. They discuss how sustained stress and workplace culture affect lawyers, along with practical, realistic strategies to support recovery and build a more sustainable approach to legal work.

Learn more about the NYSBA Attorney Well-Being Program, here.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Well-Being Matters

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Hello, and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Chenik and King. I'm your host, Kim Wolf Price. The legal profession is built on high standards, high expectations, and then often high pressure. But increasingly, we are recognizing that sustaining a career in law requires more than professional excellence. It really requires well-being. As part of Mental Health Awareness Month and our ongoing efforts to focus on mental health and well-being in the legal profession, we're focusing today on well-being across the legal profession, an issue that touches everyone, whether you're a lawyer, working in a professional staff, or supporting the legal system in some way. This conversation is grounded in awareness and shared experience, and it's meant to be approachable, practical, and real. And the best way for me to have that conversation is with Jen Clayton, the Wellbeing Program Manager for the New York State Bar Association. Welcome to the podcast, Jen.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Thank you so much. I'm so grateful to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Well, it's great to have you here. I'm so pleased that you're here. So Jen and I work together a lot because she is also the liaison to the New York State Bar Association Attorney Wellbeing Committee, which I am privileged to chair and privileged to get to work with Jen often. So I'm excited for our conversation today. We talk about the importance of well-being often, but I always learn something. So thanks

Jen Clayton’s Path Into Social Work

SPEAKER_02 1:25

for joining us. All right. So you have to get the typical legally bond guest, which is where we dive in and talk to our guests a little bit about their background so listeners can get to know who's speaking. So, Jen, would you mind telling us a little bit about you, about your experience that makes you qualified for the manager role, about how you grew up, how you were brought to this work, whatever you'd like to share.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

That's a big question.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

I know, I like big questions. You know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

And maybe a little different from some of your other guests. So born and raised in New Hampshire, so New Englander, through and through, I never knew what I wanted to do when I grew up, still don't. And I I always, you know, as as high school was ending and near, that panic set of what am I gonna do? And I would take those aptitude tests. And it said teacher was really the one thing, which I knew I couldn't get up early enough to teach. And so then the next thing that came up was something in the counseling profession. Um, I always felt like I was the friend that people were coming to when they were struggling um with breakups. Yes, I know high schoolers deal with a lot. And so I was hearing a lot of what my friends are going through back then. So that seemed like a natural fit. So I chose this social work major in undergrad. And it's so interesting that I stuck with it because throughout those four years of undergrad, they were consistently telling us whether it was professors or licensed social workers coming in as guest speakers, telling us that it was a five-year career plan. Oh gosh. Yeah. So again, I don't know why I stuck with it. You love the challenge of it, Jenny. You'd think you'd think that would be a cue to switch majors, but for whatever reason, I thought, like, that won't happen to me. But it was really because of the burnout. They were very aware that social workers were gonna be exposed to high stress environments, lots of crisis. The human experience itself comes with a lot of trauma. So social work, it felt like they were promoting this inevitable end of the career. Um and I specifically remember them saying, make sure you have a plan B. And I was like, I barely had a plan A. So I graduated and was really scared to even enter the field. I bartendered for a few years because I figure, you know, if I'm gonna burn out in five years, I might as well do that in

Crisis Response And The Burnout Trap

SPEAKER_01 3:50

a little while. And I ended up falling into my first job just because a friend posted it on social media that they were looking for an advocate for domestic violence and sexual violence crisis intervention. So it was really doing direct counseling with victims of interpersonal violence. Individuals could call a 24-hour hotline, speak to whoever answered, which was counselors. They could request a confidential advocate at core if they were getting a protective order or pressing charges against an abuser. They could come in and get one-on-one counseling in person. We would attend child advocacy appointments for children that had gone um through a reporting process. And we would go to the hospitals through the forensic examination process. So no burnout there. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I just thought that wouldn't happen to me. Yeah. So that's when I'm very fortunate because that first job really they were aware of the secondary trauma, vicarious trauma, compassion fatigue, things that are really popular topics nowadays to the general public was stuff I was learning 10, 10, 15 years ago. So I'm very grateful for that. But again, I was so exposed to this idea that it was going to impact me that I was trying to combat it. So every conference I went to, I went to the well-being sessions, I went to the burnout sessions, really trying to prevent it from happening. But there was also this part of me that thought I was so tough that like, I'll just keep watching Law and Order SVU. I'm gonna listen to the true kind podcasts, I'll just get really, really hard. And then nothing my clients will go through will shock me, nothing will impact me because I've been exposed to it all. And would you be surprised that after a couple of years I was pretty crispy? I was cynical. I I had no empathy for my friends and family because like they had no idea what I was going through at work. They're complaining about their nine to five. You know, I'm getting calls at 3 a.m., 4 a.m., 5 a.m. I'm getting pulled out of the shower with shampoo in my hair to answer these hotline calls. So that really did a number on me. It got to a point where I really had to face the fact that I was unwell. And I thought if I go to grad school, get my master's degree, then I can become a manager of this type of role, and then I'll prevent other people from burning out because I felt really unsupported from leadership in my early roles. So I focused my entire master's social career on not-for-profit organizational burnout retention. There's lots of research on staff retention and simultaneously on those topics of secondary trauma and things like that. And when I graduated in the brink of May 2020 of the pandemic, I really figured like I've got it all now, got the education, got the experience, and I'm gonna change things for people. And I found my quote unquote dream job, which was being a manager of the exact same work I had been doing in New Hampshire, but here in New York. And so it was 24-hour crisis services, same thing at the hospital, the hotline, um, except I was managing a team of counselors. Um unfortunately, they were all very burnt out too. Um, so I'm now realizing not only am I bearing the weight of all of this trauma happening in the capital region of New York, also the vicarious trauma of the staff that have been responding to these instances and also feeling like incredibly helpless and burnt out real quick. So I quit my job with no plan. I was like, okay, it happened. I made it longer than five years, but I'm done. I'm out of the social work profession. I was so done. I was scrolling LinkedIn, job hunting, and I had done the math to think of like what's the absolute minimum amount of money I can accept to pay for my rent, which was not very much. And I was willing to accept anything because I just couldn't fathom feeling that the weight of it all anymore. And then somehow found this post uh from the New York State Bar Association. And it was exactly what I wanted to do because I had all this time I was burning out. I was thinking, why aren't there roles at programs, at agencies, at um at companies dedicated to caring about the employees' well-being? Like, because it wasn't just me. It was when I was at these organizations, every single one of my colleagues was also struggling. And they were coming to me, talking about how burnt out they were. So I was also feeling that. And so found this role that the New York State Bar Association was hiring for an

Building Attorney Well-Being At NYSBA

SPEAKER_01 8:40

attorney well-being program manager. And I thought I was a little unqualified since I'm not a lawyer myself, but based on it just aligning with everything I was so passionate about, I took the chance and applied. And it's been almost, I think almost five years now, four or five years.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

So it's wild. It's wild. We've done so much, right? So you came in right at the end of the task force report had been issued. The New York State Bar Association had a task force on attorney well-being and the creation of the committee. And, you know, it's a bunch of lawyers trying to find their way and figure out well-being programming. And so we really needed someone who had their master's in social work, licensed clinical social worker who could help us, you know, find our way and build the programming. So is that really like what does your role within the New York State Bar Association involve day to day? Though I'm sure it's different day to day, but give us some overview.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah, it's fun because every day is different. So I'll try and give a rough overview of what a typical day would look like. But as you mentioned, the task force resulted in a standing committee on attorney well-being. You're the chair of, um, so so you're familiar um with that. But the standing committee is doing this work, it's full of volunteer um members of the New York State Bar Association, really dedicated to the same thing we've already talked about, this passion for burnout prevention. Because similar to social work, lawyers are kind of told to stuff down your human emotions, just get, you know, get the legal work done, regardless of it if you're in litigation or in a big law firm. There is this idea of getting rid of those human traits and just getting the job done. And so the committee is comprised of different professionals and mostly just passionate volunteers looking to change the culture. And so we again, every day is different. But through the past few years, we've been able to develop groups. So I run a couple of groups. We also bring in guest speakers to do groups and webinars. So doing a lot of coordinating those types of opportunities and events. We uh yeah, we're always just hosting different things, and that's why it's all different. So sometimes you and I are just being asked to speak at things.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

We're like, sure, we'll show up.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yeah. So sometimes it's like wearing a lot of hats, but in a really good way, not in a being spread tooth. I feel like that term gets used negatively a lot. But yeah, just getting to have these conversations, and it is what it's all about, really, what we're trying to do here.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Yeah, absolutely. Because the more we talk about these issues, the more we make them part of the day-to-day conversation, the easier it is for someone who is starting to feel that crispiness of burnout or other issues to come forward. And as I I mentioned at the top of the episode, May is mental health awareness month. And I think that's a chance, right? That these types of month um recognitions to pause and reflect a bit. But you know, you mentioned burnout, the legal profession, all of these things. It's really important. So it's also deeply personal when people talk about well-being. And it's I think some places, and you know, good on them, right? Like sometimes people look at it as spa days and and other things, and and that's all fine, right? But it is a deeper issue that sometimes goes to how people perform and how they

Mental Health As A Lived Experience

SPEAKER_02 12:10

show up for work every day. So when we talk about since this is a legal-based podcast, when we talk about mental mental health awareness month, what do you think it specifically means for the legal profession?

SPEAKER_01 12:22

That's a great question. I actually saw a wider critique on the wellness movement or the mental health movement that I think really applies to this. And it was basically that we as a society have done a good job at normalizing mental health as a concept, but not necessarily as an experience. So we know, like, you know, there's the campaigns of mental health is health. Um, your mental well-being is a part of your overall well-being. We can understand those general concepts. We know, like you said, that a spa day will do the body good. If you are feeling a little overworked, um, taking some time off is great. But when mental health starts to show up in a real way, starts to decline, that's when I think we are still in a place where it's not normalized to the point where we have a productive response. So if an employee at a law firm is really struggling and it's starting to impact their work, have we done our due diligence to make sure they are feeling supported, that they can ask for help, and that they're gonna be able to bounce back from it. And I think that is a big thing of what we're again gonna talk more about here, is just that there is so many stressors in the legal field. And I mentioned it's very common for us to ignore and just push it down. That bootstrap mentality, which as a New Englander, totally understand. Um but yeah, uh for the legal profession, the wellness movement, we've done a really great job in encouraging certain aspects, but there's a lot of work to do, certainly. And like you said, it's personal. Lawyers are human and going through human things.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Yeah, and sometimes lawyers don't like to admit that part, Saya. If um I've learned of a thing or two. I I do think that also we're slow to change, right? We are sort of one of those bedrock professions that's supposed to be steady. And so then sometimes change in how we view things can be kind of hard. Are you seeing any common themes around

Generations Boundaries And Imposter Syndrome

SPEAKER_02 14:30

well-being in the law?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Well, to your point just now, there's some generational themes we're seeing where, like you said, the maybe folks that have been in the profession for a few decades might have this, you know, rigid way of doing things. Um, it's been working well for them and their teams for X amount of years. So why break the cycle? Then we have younger generations coming in with strong expectations of boundaries and um balance. And then what I actually think, I don't know if there's a name for them yet, but there's a huge group stuck in between that are saying, okay, so I've been led by this one group that that is um that is um being held to these expectations, but I'm also kind of jealous and admiring the boundaries that this younger generation has. And I think, you know, this goes for everything, but more communication from the generations would be huge to help bridge some of those gaps. But also not separating generations. I think all of the generations are struggling with concepts of imposter syndrome, which a lot of it is self-doubt, maybe getting a new uh rebrand or a new specific name. So imposter syndrome is a big one that not just young professionals are facing. So true. Burnout, compassion fatigue, of course. And then I think just trying to set those boundaries, it's tough. The theme is that there's no no quick solution. I think for the past few years, everyone was like, okay, we just got to figure out this wellness thing. Like, we'll we'll find whoever has the best option, the best answer. And that's I think some of the speaking opportunities we get asked to come to is like who has the answers? Someone someone on this panel will find the answer. And unfortunately, like you said, it's a slow change, but there is a ton of people in the legal profession, especially that are dedicated to making that change.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Yeah, and I'm seeing even more and more where it's general counsel, so you know, the clients for the firms, and that can be a big driver as well. I I do think, and you and I have talked about this a lot. You know, I feel this is part of it. We have to be honest that

Pressure Versus Burnout And Recovery

SPEAKER_02 16:45

there is pressure and stress in the field. Like you have to acknowledge that that is part of this work, but feeling burnout is not one. Like we have to let people know that you know, sometimes you have a deadline, and a deadline creates pressure and stress. But if you're constantly running at that level, there's no recovery. It's sort of like if you're the person who thinks you have to like really work out hard every day and your body has no chance to recover, it's the same thing with your emotional system and your mental health, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yeah, you have to build in those pieces along the way.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

And that perfectionistic mindset, too, that so many lawyers identify with is if I can't go to the gym every day before work because I have a court or an early meeting or whatever it is, then what's what's the point? And I I certainly would relate to that too. You know, being working on a a hotline, we would take 24 hour shifts. So it was like, well, I every Tuesday have to or be on call. So not doing yoga. Um, you know, what's the point? Yeah. Or every we'd have to sign up for one weekend a month to cover. So it's like, well, there goes fun to happen in that weekend. So yeah, or just like, why do something every Saturday if I know I'm gonna miss this one weekend? And I think lawyers experience that too. And I I really want our programming to acknowledge that and address that because so many of the recommendations for setting boundaries don't apply to lawyers, like, oh, just turn off your laptop at 5 p.m. Right. That's literally impossible for so many. And so figuring out just more creative solutions and thinking outside the box, because yeah, that black and white thinking can can keep us kind of trapped a little bit too. This there's always, you know, some sort of creative solution. And,

Micro Changes That Actually Help

SPEAKER_01 18:40

you know, why my example of that is with the I couldn't not answer a hotline call when I worked on the hotline, obviously. But what I noticed is on the shifts I didn't have, I wasn't covering, I it was an Android phone that I had that would ring. Um, and I was in a store and all of a sudden someone's phone started ringing across the store. And I jumped and I could, I could feel my heart racing, and I realized that I wasn't on call. Um, it wasn't even my phone. I mean, I was supposed to be out just out and about, and I'm I'm triggered by this phone call. So even though I can't not be on call, what I did do was I reprogrammed the ringer so that when I did get hotline calls, it was a very unique sound. So I done this like opposite of Pavlov talking like that. Right, exactly. That's an excellent point though. Yeah. So again, and that's a obviously not not a lot of people are gonna relate to that specific example. But if you find the ding of your email, you know, causing you stress and you want to just turn it off, and or you find yourself getting stressed for the promotional emails coming in on your personal account, like maybe separating those out rather than just saying, just don't answer your emails if they're stressing you out.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

I don't have my emails show up on my lock screen. Do I check in a lot? Yes, I do. But they don't show up on my lock screen. So it's not like I look over and it's you know, uh it's it's causing me that stress. It's a much like lower level of anxiety than you're talking about, but still it's a it's we talk about a lot of like micro changes that people can make. And that's just some of like the ways you can you can

Why Lawyers Avoid Seeking Support

SPEAKER_02 20:20

do it. I also think in this profession there are some barriers to people seeking support. And what are some of those that you see with the lawyers?

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Oh, there's tons. I mean there's the human barriers of, you know, just say thinking that what I'm going through is not worthy of needing support. Um, we're so good at it again, uh stuffing down our emotions and saying, you know, other people have it worse than me. So I I can just um stuff this down, navigate it myself. There's obviously fear of what that'll look like to reach out for help. Really, the concept of social anxiety, I think, on an extreme is not knowing no one really knows what it looks like to reach out for help. If you call a hotline, you don't necessarily know is it gonna be a recorded automated thing? Are they gonna ask me scary questions? And same thing for you know, reaching out to a lawyer assistance program, reaching out to a law firm um program, not knowing is this going to one, what's it gonna feel like, what are they gonna ask me? And then the the follow-up of did that did that get tracked? Did it go anywhere? Um, you know, is this gonna be on my tied to my tied to the bar uh like account, anything like that? And so there's those fears. Yeah, there's this so many.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Yeah, and lawyers think, well, I don't want to call the regular EAP because they don't understand my stress as a lawyer. I'll I I'll say it. That's a lot of times.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

I can't say that, but you can say that.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

I will say that. And so that is one of the things I think we found. That, like, you know, if you have an EAP, it's probably not your lawyers who are accessing it. And so that's why our LAP, which comes through the lawyers assistance program and other places, and I think people worry the clients will know, or people won't see me as the tough guy anymore if I do this. So all these are real, right? They're real feelings people are having

The Eight Pillars Framework Explained

SPEAKER_02 22:20

and real barriers to getting help. So one of the things we talk about a lot that you've put in place at the Bar Association is the eight pillars framework. And it's a way to look at all of this. And it is for those micro moments we talk about. Like it doesn't have to be a perfect day for recovery from your burnout. It doesn't have to be a seven-day like meditation retreat. Like there are things you can do that help relieve that pressure so that you can have that little bit of recovery. So, can you talk a little bit about the eight pillars?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Absolutely. So when we started the attorney well-being program back in 2022, yes, 2022 was when we started. So we brought in the standing committee on attorney well-being, um, myself as the program manager. And it was really a blank slate, which I was not really prepared for. Yeah. You get a job and then you have to also build the job. Um, so that was really unique. And so I'm someone that likes strategy, likes structure. And we were getting a ton of inquiries from guest speakers, um, you know, to to do different webinars, different groups, different activities, which all seemed like a great opportunity. Um, but again, I was kind of like, but what are what are we doing? We're just gonna have a million guest speakers with no, like, is that a program? And so I decided it's not. So I decided we needed some sort of structure. And I I really didn't know what that would look like, but something that was so evident um across the board, regardless of what you know, what type of law you practice, um, what your past experiences are, what you're going through is the legal role is technically just one part of who you are. And so if you're also experiencing health conditions, if you're also going through family struggles, if you're basically there's all these, you're a lawyer and and I wanted our program to capture that. And so we didn't invent the eight pillars, but we basically tried to find some sort of framework that that captured all of those pieces. Um, so some programs um will follow. I think the American Bar Association uses the six dimensions of wellness. Yeah. Similar concepts, but really again, just trying to find some sort of structure. And like you said, it's these micro changes. And what I love about the eight pillars is they can be used in so many different ways. So if I'm, you know, feeling really down in the dumps, really struggling, um, my mental health is just like depleted, I'm tired, I don't want to do anything, stuck on the couch. Maybe I can say, I can look at the eight pillars and say, what's one thing I can do? And maybe it's something so small as to open my bank account and make sure I paid my credit card statement. And that's that's my financial wellness for the day. And then that just shows it helps you reframe, say, okay, I did, I did get one small thing accomplished. And it kind of helps reverse the perspective of, oh, I didn't do anything, right? And again, that perfectionism is I I can't commit to anything. Well, you maybe can't commit to a weekly Pilates class or something because your schedule is unpredictable, but you can commit to just focusing on your eight pillars and maybe somewhere along the lines, the physical wellness pillar, you can check that off. And, you know, people always say, like, take the stairs, or you know, they offer these micro tips, which are great. I don't, you know, I'm encouraging those tips, but those feel like they don't really amount to anything. But if you start looking at it like, yeah, that was my physical wellness for the day, I'm doing it. And then maybe tomorrow when you do make it to the gym, it doesn't feel like a failure that you're there for the first time on Thursday, because you've already said, you know, all I could fit in was the stairs on Tuesday. All I could fit in was a quick walk, you know, on Monday. Yeah. It just helps you reframe your thoughts and also stay balanced. So that's the other big thing is there's certain people they'll, they'll, you know, if their mental health is struggling, maybe they'll start working out. And maybe that's a good coping method and it's productive, but it also might be masking or um escapism. So people might start working out too much because they're still avoiding. So stressed at work, doing um two days at the gym, you know, and now their schedule's so full that they actually don't have to talk about how much their mental health is struggling. So the eight pillars also help

Co-Working Tapping And Mindful Moments

SPEAKER_01 27:10

to stay balanced as well, make sure you're accountable to that balance.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Yeah, it really is so much about balance. And not only have you developed that into the programming, you've created programming that's never happened at the bar before. Mindful moments, the co-working program. Can you just talk about those a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yes. So the, as we have talked about, as we started developing the eight pillars, having a little bit more structure, and that's still a focus of ours. We want to bring in different guest speakers, varieties of modalities to help people figure out what works for them, which microchangers are going to work for them. But what I also felt like was missing was consistency and also a sense of community. You can attend as many one-off webinars and CLE programs as you want, but is that really is that really making a difference? And so the groups we've developed are really dedicated to those two things, consistency and community, and making sure we're capturing a few different techniques and modalities. So we're not just leaning into just meditation. So we have four groups currently running. We have the co-working group on Tuesdays to increase. And this is also how I again use the eight pillars to reframe that mindset. So the co-working group on Tuesdays is really just on screen, on Zoom, working together silently. And it's building community, encouraging individuals to just get their tasks done. But when I look at the eight pillars that it's checking off, we can look at social wellness because we're having co-workers. I call it, I call us co-workers because we're co-working together. Each week, every Tuesday from two to four, you know, this consistent members each week. And they some are even out of state. So working at completely different areas of law, and they're they're being able to say, Hey, I finished this memo, or oh, this brief I worked on got approved, and celebrating these small wins, which is so rare in the remote workspace too, to have virtual coworkers to just talk to. I make people take a water cooler break um halfway through. And so that's also I I like to sneak in physical wellness there. So take a take a sip of water, adjust your posture. Um got social wellness, physical wellness, um, occupational wellness because you're working on your to-do lists, and then intellectual wellness because you're increasing your focus and attention span by sitting in front of the screen and getting your work done rather than pacing around or you know, doing what for those of us that were work from home, maybe go emptying the dishwasher. Um, so you're uh someone describes it as feeling tethered to the computer to get their work done. So that's the co-working group. We have a monthly peer support group, peer um wellness group. And that's at the end of the month, just a space for individuals to come and just talk about what it's like to struggle with maintaining these consistent practices and what barriers they're facing at work trying to set these boundaries. Then we have a tapping group, which we ran um today, this afternoon. It's every other Thursday at one. So that we have a guest speaker that comes in and is trained in the emotional freedom technique of tapping. So tapping on pressure points to address uh nervous system regulation. And that's been remarkable to see the different areas that we see lawyers impacted. So they're struggling with sleep, struggling with chronic pain, struggling with ruminating on thoughts of time management and unproductivity. So physical and these conceptual ideas uh have been able to be addressed through this tapping group. And then the Mindful Moments is a Friday meditation group run by members of our committee on attorney well-being. So three separate, three separate committee members that are all lawyers, all experienced in the profession, that also have experience in meditation. Every Friday at 1:30, coming in a group, probably about 30 people uh every Friday meditating together on screen and just having a moment of community together. We spend 10 minutes at the end sharing. That was really hard to um sit in silence for 20 minutes, or that was so needed. And so it's been really great to just see that evolve and the consistency in the community over the years.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Yeah, and there's there is great attendance and community is being built, especially, you know, our task force report talked about solo and small practitioners really having the hardest time because there is no built-in community and they are the everything for their practices, or maybe they're running a small office for a legal services agency and they're you know in the the remote office. And so all of these things really just provide a way for people to reframe how they're thinking, reconnect, work on the eight pillars, and really um gives a little bit of hope, I think, to people who might be struggling at a point, which is great, Jen. I really it's been tremendous to see the program develop,

One Small Step And Finding Baseline

SPEAKER_02 32:30

absolutely tremendous. Well, before we wind down, um if someone is feeling a little burned out or overwhelmed today, is there something like a small practical step they could take this week?

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Well, they could certainly attend to our mindful moments meditation. Quick plug. Very good. Quick plug. Um, so that's very easy to join. You just have to email me or go on our website. But I think just taking a moment, taking a breath and and remembering who you are is so important. There's so many individuals that have lost sight of their values, of their priorities because of the stress. Because, like you said, there's a lot that lawyers can't ignore and can't change about the profession. And so just taking a moment to just reflect on who you are as a human outside of the role that's currently stressing you out and and try and find your way back to that.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

I think that's excellent advice. And also if someone is listening and thinking, oh, actually, I'm I'm doing fine, why is it still important to think about well-being and mental health?

SPEAKER_01 33:40

And that's why I love the eight pillars, because I think we are always growing, always changing. And so the eight pillars can really help you remain self-aware about what your goals are. You know, your goals aren't just professional. It's not about just climbing the career ladder. Um, so figuring out what does physical wellness, what does peak physical wellness look like for me? What does peak intellectual wellness look like for me? Also, we use the eight pillars to set boundaries, which wouldn't be relevant for someone that's feeling like they don't need that, and self-care. But I think again, checking in on those eight pillars and just seeing, is there anywhere that needs a little bit of attention right now and making sure you have a good idea of what your baseline is so that if things do change, you can come back to it.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Yeah, that's an excellent point. It really resonates to make sure that you're checking in on that baseline and and paying attention. Um, I have to say, I say all the time that it's everyone in the legal field. If you support lawyers, if you are a program manager or liaison at the Bar Association, if you're the producer of a podcast at a law firm, if you work around lawyers at all, we share our stress and we like to make sure it's everyone who works in the profession. So this conversation is for everyone. And I have to say, Jen's kind of proving what happens when you work with lawyers too much because I'm looking at her right now and she has scales behind her, which look frighteningly like the scales of justice.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

So everyone says that, but I am a Libra. So very good.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

All right. Well, Libra, your sign pointed

Resources Listener Outreach And Closing

SPEAKER_02 35:15

you right to us, and I'm glad it did. So thank you very much. Um, for anyone, any listeners who are interested, there are a lot of resources through the New York State Bar Association, including the Lawyers Assistance Program and other well-being initiatives. So please go to nisba.org. Well, Jen, thanks so much. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for the conversation and all the work that you do. We are helping move the conversation forward in this profession that means so much to me and so many others. And we're really grateful for you. So it's important work, and I'm glad you're helping us get it done. So thanks again for being here.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Well, we isn't just about removing pressure from the profession, it's about giving people the tools and support to navigate it in a sustainable way. And we hope folks have learned some of that today. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm, or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legally bond at bsk.com. And as always, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until our next talk, be well.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

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