Legally Bond
Legally Bond
An Interview with Erin Torcello, Labor and Employment
In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond labor and employment attorney Erin Torcello. Erin talks about the cyclical nature of labor and employment law and her leadership roles at the firm including becoming a part of Bond's Management Committee this year.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond, Jannik and King. I'm your host, Kim Wolf Price. Today we're talking with Erin Torcello, a member who works out of Bond's Buffalo office. Erin is part of our Labor Department, assisting management side clients with a variety of employment-related business needs. Hi, Erin, I'm really excited to have you here. Thank you for having me here, Kim. I love talking to you, so this will be a fun podcast episode today. It'll be fun, yeah, All right.
Speaker 1:So there's so many topics we could cover, of course, the entire world of topics. I think you and I have covered many of them, but even in Labor and Employment Law there's employment side. Labor and employment. It covers just so much ground and I don't think people fully understand that. So I'm hoping today we can give listeners an overview of Labor and Employment Practice, and I'd also like to talk about your leadership roles at the firm and some of the areas where you focus your practice. Does that sound like a good outline for today? Sounds good? Well, before we get into legal practice topics, I like to start the episodes of the podcast asking the guests to tell the listeners a little bit about themselves so we can ease into the conversation. So up to you what you'd like to talk about, your background, where you grew up, undergrad, law school, family, whatever you'd like to talk about.
Speaker 3:Sure. So I grew up in a small town outside of Rochester called Lyman, new York. I went to Henry Falls Lyman High School or HFL for those of us who are from the Rochester area and I began my college career at Geneseo for one year and then I transferred to the Cornell Industrial and Labor Relations School and then after that I went to UB for law school and I've been in Buffalo ever since.
Speaker 1:Very good, and so I do, I think baby for our non-Rochester friends. I have to point out that you said Lyman Lyma.
Speaker 3:It's Lyma, it's not Lima and it's Avon not Avon. And it's Chaiwai not Chili. Charlotte, I wish Charlotte, not Charlotte. There is a whole list of them. I also learned after leaving that I had a significant accent that I didn't know I had with my A's.
Speaker 1:So I'm not Western, but I'm Central New York, and people have been kind to point that out to me as well. Also, all right, so you made it to Buffalo for law school, and then how did you get to bond?
Speaker 3:Kind of by a fluke actually. So when I was going to law school, because of my background in kind of the labor relations world in law school I wanted to get as far away from labor and employment law as possible. I didn't want to pigeonhole myself in this area of law. I wanted to see what else there was. And so when I was applying for my second summer jobs which I was applying to just law firms, I wanted to do big law. I wanted to go to New York City, boston, dc, you know I wanted to get out a little bit but no firms wanted me for anything other than labor and employment law.
Speaker 3:So my second summer as I was applying in big cities I did not actually apply to bond but I did apply to bond around that same time for a law clerk position they had open for it would have been a beginning, I think, that my second year in the fall which was unusual because at the time our Buffalo office was about maybe six attorneys and it was all predominantly just labor and employment attorneys but the office was pretty busy so I applied for this law clerk position and they had called me and had already taken a position with a small plaintiff side solo practitioner here in Buffalo. And so by the time they called him like actually I already took another job, and Bob Dorn, who was the managing member of the office I believe he was at the time it's like well, why didn't you apply for the second summer opening? I said I had. I didn't know there was one, and so the way that the openings were posted, I thought the bond opening was in Syracuse and I just didn't. I didn't plan to move to Syracuse. It's like no, we have an opening, why don't you come in and meet with us? So I did, and then the rest is history.
Speaker 3:I was a summer here my second year of law school, my 12 summer. I actually worked a clerk here, my third year of law school. And then obviously I like change Because I've been here ever since.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the firm in Buffalo, you know it's changed a lot since then, so even though I haven't changed my surroundings, my surroundings have changed around me.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, we started out as a very small six, seven, eight person office at the Key Center for anyone listening in Buffalo will know where that is too. So we moved over to the Avant building when we merged with the Jaco firm. So there has been moves and change, just that it's all been with bond.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's now bigger, which significantly bigger the office out in Buffalo as well, with a lot more practice areas.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so what started out as essentially a small boutique labor and employment boutique office is now a full service office in Buffalo. We offer litigation, commercial litigation, real estate, trust in estates, general business work, m&a work.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I think that's great. It has been really since in the time that you've been there is the time when the change has really been the most in the firm in the Buffalo, Niagara region.
Speaker 3:And it's funny because the major changes also happened around major changes in my life. So when the merger was announced, I just returned from maternity leave I want to say around September, october, maybe a little bit earlier to my second child, and the managing member of our office at the time sat us down. He's like hey, by the way, we're merging with the Jaco Fleischman firm come January 1. And I sat there thinking, oh my God, how is my life going to change? Like I know everyone here, they know me, I've got these two young kids. What is my life going to look like after this? And actually, the merger, the cultures of our two offices and our two firms are very similar and it was really a successful transition. So I worried for absolutely no reason. Well, that's what I do.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what you professionally worry. Well, I really do appreciate you giving us the background and I do have a couple of questions. I think you've described the beauty and the curse of the industrial and labor relations school at Cornell because, right, it gave you the tools probably a lot for a lot of what you do, and it's such a great school. So can you talk a little bit about that school and its focus?
Speaker 3:Sure, so the ILR school, as it's known, is one of the, I believe seven or eight different schools on the Cornell campus. It is a state endowed, I believe is the term school, so it's supported through some state grants and the focus of the school is, at the time I went there, the tagline was you know the world of work. It taught you about the world of work and so all of the classes that I took they were taught through the lens of labor and employment. So, for example, as part of Cornell's curriculum, you had to take certain like statistics, things like that. Well, the statistic classes were based on labor statistics and, how you like, account for the unemployment insurance. So everything might.
Speaker 3:My history classes were the labor history, history of collective bargaining. So all of the basic classes that you might take at any liberal arts college were just taught with this lens of through the working world. So it was a really unique experience. But also some of the things that I got to do and the classes that I took through my undergrad prepared me for law school in a way that no other program could. So, for example, I took labor law, employment law. So you were introduced to these concepts earlier on than I otherwise would have been my senior year. I think it was. In my senior year I took a class in labor arbitration, and so you know you got to yeah, yeah, and so I read the professor at the time, james Gross.
Speaker 3:Actually, he would give you the transcript of a case that he heard, because he's an arbitrator and it was redacted in all the ways that it should have been. But he gave you a transcript and then you had to write an arbitration decision based on the transcript you had, and so you were practicing legal writing and how to read a transcript and how to analyze and reach a conclusion and support that conclusion. And to this day I mean I'm 20 years removed from this class After every line in my reasoning, and others as well, he'd write why, why? Why? Because you had to support your reasoning with some citation or, you know, supporting information from the transcript or the documents that were submitted at the hearing. So it was just an experience that most undergrad students don't get and it was a very good prep ground for law school, which is actually why it went there.
Speaker 1:So that's fantastic. I mean to get that kind of experience at you know, 1920 years old and working on those classes. So you said you're a summer law clerk and you were a bond. You joined after graduation and maybe you didn't think you were going to be a labor lawyer right away. But what drew you to those areas of practice once you got into it and saw how your ILR school work and law school kind of all could come together for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so because Buffalo the Buffalo office at the time was a boutique labor and employment office and we also had employee benefits. But it's funny because even though employee benefits you think of as a labor and employment type of topic, it's not Most of us labor and employment attorneys. The second we hear anything dealing with employee benefits, we run as fast as we can down the hall to get our closest employee benefits attorney. So anything health insurance related, 401k benefits, executive comp, all of those things we rely heavily on our employee benefits attorneys to help us navigate. So I was kind of a targeted hire because of my background to do labor and employment and given the fact that I was going to be in Buffalo so when I started my rotation so I still did a rotation for my summer law clerk and I still did a rotation when I started my first year as a first year associate. But having the opportunity to do those rotations, even though I was kind of a targeted hire, really did underscore the fact that this is where I was comfortable and meant to practice.
Speaker 3:So remember when I was rotating through litigation and labor, I had an assignment that dealt with an airplane lean. I didn't even know such a thing existed and so I'm researching a topic I have no comfort level with. I have no idea, I didn't even know this thing existed and I realized. So, doing general litigation, you become a master of the process, of the procedure of litigation, but you're always learning new substantive areas of law and I did not feel comfortable with that, Whereas with labor and employment I get to litigate within the substantive area that I know and I'm comfortable with. So it was kind of for me, for what I do and our practice here at Bond, I enjoyed having the opportunity to litigate my own cases. So there's a lot of mix in what I do, even within this realm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so. It's so wild to me. I mean I think I knew it, but then now, being at the firm with the Labor Department, hanging out with you labor lawyers all the time, there's just sorry, kim, I think I would come back as a laborer. I don't know. I mentioned even when I introduced you that there's just so many topics. The federal laws it's a myriad, everything from the ADA to title seven, family medical leave, osha, but of course we're in New York State and you practice here in New York lawyers, so there's the New York Human Rights Law, pay transparency laws, so many other pieces. Plus there's organized labor less to be forget, right which I think our listeners would commonly refer to as unions. There's employee separation, termination, discipline, hiring it's just so broad. And of course any of that can become litigation, because that's how litigation works. This is just such a broad area. Will you talk a little bit about the practice of labor and employment law that you maybe you most often find yourself immersed in? That would be really helpful.
Speaker 3:Sure. So, as a management side attorney Practicing both labor and employment law and when we talk about labor law, that's really the traditional labor which came, as you mentioned, typically deals with navigating unions, either unionization or navigating the relationship between an employer and a union after a union has been certified. So that's the traditional labor and the labor and employment, and then the employment side of things is all of the rest of the stuff that we do. So this is a very loaded question, kim, and I already am a verbose person and not talk for the next 20 minutes, but you asked the loaded question so I'll try and answer it as best I can. So what's interesting about our practice is that the labor side of things and the employment side of things can be cyclical.
Speaker 3:So when I first started practicing back in 2007, 2008 thereabouts I actually Did quite a bit of traditional labor work because we were we had a lot of it at the time not so much Organizing, but there were some other things happening that gave me a real kind of entree into traditional labor work. I also had that background through ILR and I did an internship with the National Labor Relations Board down in DC, so I had kind of some inside knowledge on the traditional aspect that not most new Associates have. They just haven't had the exposure to it. The traditional side of my practice and, frankly, of all of our practices after After kind of that 2008 2009 recession, just dropped off a cliff Up until about two years ago. So you might have some things here and there all of you know clients that were already Uninized.
Speaker 3:Yes, you'd have successor agreements to negotiate and you might have an NLRB charge. That's the National Labor Relations Board, it's the federal enforcement agency of the National Labor Relations Act, which kind of dictates the the rights and responsibilities of employees, employers and unions and in the traditional labor context. So, but it was not to the same level as what I had experienced in when I first started and then post COVID, we have seen a huge resurgence in Organizing efforts, particularly here in Buffalo. There have been a number of organizing campaigns, but it's not just our office. I know my colleagues in other offices have seen the same uptick in in organizing efforts across the state, which I think is a response to COVID, it's a response to changing generations and at work, I think so yeah people working together and trying to navigate that.
Speaker 3:So now my practice, which was Predominantly employment law for, you know, ten years, is starting to shift back to it's probably it's about 50-50 right now. Wow, if not, if not more traditional labor because what happened was right. When you don't have a lot of that work to do, not as many people are exposed to it, yeah, so so for those of us who have done it, those questions tend to kind of siphon to us, and so that's why that my balance has changed quite a bit. So, on the the employment side of things, that's helping employers navigate a termination when they think there might be a risk of getting sued or having an administrative charge filed, helping employers comply with I mean, kim, you just listed how many different laws. Well, ultimately, there's someone or a number of people within an organization that are responsible for ensuring that business Complys with all of those laws, many of whom are not attorneys.
Speaker 3:So a lot of times you're working with it's typically HR personnel to help keep the business in compliance with what is an ever-changing landscape of laws. And because there is so much that's encompassed with an employment law, there's a lot of us who, when there's like, for example, osha, I I will refer that to a colleague of mine who does ocean because we can't be we cannot be masters of every Domain within this realm, because there's way too much. That's why it's so good we have such a deep bench. Yes, right.
Speaker 1:So when you have, you know, 70 or so other people, who do what you do.
Speaker 3:There's someone else within your group that has touched it. So, for example, if I have technical wage and all of wage an hour is technical, but if I'm really not sure, I go to someone who I know has done class action wage in our lawsuits, they, you know, dug deep in wages, the wage an hour area, because I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything. Same with FMLA. We have individuals who are like Technicians within the FM light and they know the regs inside and out. So when I have a kind of a wonky question I know who to go to. So and same with public sector, because those rules are different too. So if that's an issue that comes up, I'm calling Garden City because someone there will be able to help me. So it is. It is hugely helpful to have the depth of knowledge that we do within this group, because you can't know everything Right and I think it's really interesting. You know you said how, like with whatever's happening in society.
Speaker 1:Right, there's shifts in this type of law and what's happening? Is it more labor? Is it more employment? And how your practice changes. But I imagine with both sides, for different reasons. These are personal things to people, right, it's like work, it's how you make a living, it's so. You must hear, whether it's on the labor side or the employment Complicated and sometimes really personal stories. People are dealing with things that are, and they're emotional. Right, there's height. Yes, how do you keep calm and focused when you're in like the middle of the tsunami? Okay, how do you keep calm and focused when you're in like the middle of the tsunami?
Speaker 3:So that's a really great question. I don't know, it's just my personality. So I tend not to be a reactive person, unless it comes to my kids, which is a different story, although even with them I have to say, like being a mom, you get thrown a lot of things and you've got to like I've been able to practice in my poker face, but doing this job it's the same thing. I've been able to practice those skills of not reacting, at least initially. I always have a reaction at some point, it's just not an immediate time to it's happening. But I've explained to clients and prospective clients in the past like sometimes this job and sometimes being an HR person is a little bit like giving therapy or being a counselor, because you do hear a lot of things Kim I think you said it really well which is everyone works right and work becomes very personal to you as an individual, especially if you are an individual who drives your value in some way from the work that you do, and so if that's taken away from you or if that is changed as a human, there's usually a negative reaction to that, and so that's why there's a lot of litigation in the employment realm, sitting at labor negotiations.
Speaker 3:It is all about relationships, right, and the relationships at the table, the relationships outside of that table and my role in that. I try not to make it worse. Right so if I want to be there as a facilitator to make these two parties get to where they need to go. Right so if the employer and I'm always representing the employer so if the employer needs something done, needs to get something in a contract, my job is to get that done without kind of throwing a bomb into the relationship, because as soon as I walk out of that room I don't have to live with it. So I take that aspect of this very seriously in how I navigate my practice. We're all human and we all have different feelings and emotions and we have to work around that and deal with it as we're trying to do our jobs as labor and employment attorneys.
Speaker 1:I think that's really important. It's such a great perspective to have. So I have to ask you're dealing with clients management side, employment and sometimes labor issues all the time, so then you decide you want more management responsibilities here.
Speaker 3:It's just so much fun, Kim.
Speaker 1:So I guess I should back up a little bit. You've had leadership roles at the firm, growing in a variety of ways. Since you started. You spent time on many committees, sometimes many, many many. Most recently you served as deputy chair of the recruiting committee, but in January you began a new role as a member of the firm's management committee. So I guess first I'm going to ask you what inspired you to become more involved in firm service.
Speaker 3:Kim. That's presuming that I did this with any intentionality whatsoever. So even when I talk about you know, why did you go to ILR? Why did you go to law school? Why did you go to bond? To do labor and employment. You know, all of these things just happen to me. Sometimes I feel like maybe I subconsciously put myself in position where it happens.
Speaker 3:But I can't say that I sat here with a plan like this is what I want to do with my life, even going to the ILR school. My dad and I was thinking about this last night. So my dad had come home with a brochure for Cornell, ilr, so I was trying to think about where I wanted to go to school. I remember opening it up and seeing that one of the professions of graduates there was to become a sports agent. I'm like, oh, that is so cool. I want to be a sports agent, I'm going to apply here, and I didn't know what a labor union was. I didn't grow up in a union household.
Speaker 3:My dad wasn't a union but he was in a supervisors union. So, in any event, I say, wasn't he in a union? But yeah, yeah, but it was not like a big part of his professional career because he was an attorney for the county and so he was in a supervisors unit and it's just a little bit different. So, in any event, so like I go to college in my first class on labor or whatever it was, I'm like what's a union and it all worked out, but there was not. It's like I thought I could be a sports agent. I'm like that sounds kind of cool.
Speaker 3:So, to your question about the management committee and leadership roles, throughout my kind of course of my life and as I was, like I said, kind of thinking about this, despite what I feel like is a lot of just happenstance and karma working its magic, I have, I would say, always kind of been gravitated towards, or people see me as a leader, right?
Speaker 3:So I was a captain of sports teams and it's just something that I've gravitated towards or people have gravitated towards me for whatever reason.
Speaker 3:I think I tend to be a good listener and I take. I respect people and I take what they have to say seriously, even if I don't always agree with it or think it's the right thing to do. I think how I deal with people has led me to leadership roles. So, being here in Buffalo, I got involved in leadership in the office relatively early because there was only 10 to 12 of us at that time and it was more out of necessity than, like I said, intentionality. So I was on committees relatively early through the women's initiative and out planning events and because it's what we did, it's what the office had to do in order to promote itself and brand itself, and so I think I benefited from the fact that I started in a small firm backed by a large firm, because I had exposure to others in leadership positions that I might not have otherwise had at that age or that level of experience with the firm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think also you know all of that, true, but you're a problem solver and you have that work ethic that like, okay, let's get this done. Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 3:I definitely think so. So like oh wait, kim, can I just let me let me rephrase that she can't say no and she's busy enough that she's got to get it done. So.
Speaker 1:I may suffer from a similar. All right, so we should back up just a minute, like we're saying management committee, but this is a pretty big deal at the firm, so can you just talk about what the management committee is?
Speaker 3:if I'm trying to get King, yeah, so most firms have committee that helps to run the firm, the administrative functions of running a firm, the business side of running a firm.
Speaker 3:So our committee is called the management committee and the management committee here at Bond has seven members which are elected, while they're nominated by a nominating committee and then ultimately elected by the members of the firm. So the way that our process tends to work or does work, I should say is the managing member of the firm which is also a member of the management committee puts together or appoints a nominating committee sometime around June, julyish timeframe. The nominating committee then solicits input from the individual members. For any individual who that you know, any individual member wants to recommend to the committee to consider for a spot on the management committee, you can also nominate yourself. So once the nominating committee has a list of members to consider, they then they do interviews with the membership and then ultimately propose a slate for the membership to vote on. So that's the inside baseball on how our firm operates. To the extent everyone is still awake after having listened to that.
Speaker 1:So you know right, the committee and the committee and all the big business decisions. I mean you spent an entire day going over the budget.
Speaker 3:We did spend an entire day going over the budget, so it is it is an honor that your fellow members think that you would do a good job leading the firm that impacts their daily life right like they are entrusting you to make strategic decisions about their livelihood and the direction of the firm, so it is an honor, also a huge responsibility, to make sure that that you meet the expectations that everyone has of you.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I think that's fantastic. I mean so, whether you saw it or you worked hard enough to get out for it. However it is, I think it's great to have you in this role and that your voice is going to be important to the future of the firm, so I think it's great. Thank you. Yeah, alright, so I do have to say this. I mentioned you were the deputy chair of the recruiting committee for a long time, so what's the advice you would give someone in law school now was considering labor and employment law.
Speaker 3:Oh that is a tough question. It's tough because there's a lot right. So graduating from from law school and starting your first job, especially if you go into private practice in a firm, I think it's important for new attorneys to understand that they don't know a lot more than they know, yeah, and that this, that the practice of law regardless of the area that you go into, you are committing yourself to a life of learning. In our area in particular, I mean, kim, and you just went through the litany of laws at the federal and state and local schools. Like you, are constantly having to learn new things and also remember all the things that you learn before. So you have to understand that you are committing yourself to a lifetime of learning, and learning in different ways to.
Speaker 3:And the other thing is this this is a profession, not a job, and I think it's difficult coming out of law school to understand what that means.
Speaker 3:But what it means for me is you know, for example, so I'm what if I graduated in 2006 or seven? I've been doing this for almost 15 years. Through that time, I've gotten married, I've had two kids, and what my my day looks like now is very different than what my day looked like in 2008. But you have to understand that going into this, because it's a profession and not a job, my hours aren't normal. So you know, while while they're, my hours are relatively normal, I'm, you know you take calls and you're answering emails at the times of day that you know maybe it's after bedtime, things like that. So there's flexibility, but it's not I can. It's not like when I worked as a cashier and I could walk out at the end of the day and not think about my job at all until my next shift. That's not how this job works. It is it's you're always on in some way and there's expectation that you're available, so that that can be difficult for new graduates to understand and to get used to, to acclimate to.
Speaker 1:I think it's part of you know we call it the practice of law. That is that continuous learning, but it's also that getting used to the profession and getting into it. The first parts are really that. Yeah, absolutely. It's a fun profession to be part of, though it's its own feast in many ways.
Speaker 3:It can be fun, but it can be, it's all. It can be tough too, like so can I? Maybe I can't remember if I've actually I've shared the story with you, but when we were going through the executive coaching sessions, this is a few years ago that I went through mine through the firm. So for those listening who don't know, our firm has offered executive coaching through our women's initiative, which I personally found helpful, in part because you're having to self kind of self reflection and self analyze, and during one of our sessions I realized that all I do all day is is navigate other people's problems and it was this really odd kind of epiphany for me. I should have known and it was so simple, except I just had never thought about it that way. So we can.
Speaker 3:Also because if you're not a person who can compartmentalize and separate yourself from other like if you are a very empathetic person and maybe I'm saying something about myself that I might not want to hear but if you are a very empathetic person and you can't compartmentalize between yourself and someone else's problem that they have and, to your point about, you may be dealing with very emotional issues it can be really difficult to navigate if your personality is one that you have a hard time separating yourself from the emotion of always having to handle other people's crises. But so that kid, when you're going into this profession, sometimes it's also helpful to understand the mental, emotional toll that it can take. And when you're starting out early on, if you find yourself struggling with that because it can be a struggle right, like I think and I don't know this because I'm not one, but it's my understanding like mental health counselors, psychologists, psychiatrists, have to seek therapy themselves. Right, because you are always handling other people's trauma and processing it. And sometimes the same can be true here. Like, sometimes you have to be honest with yourself early on to say do I need help managing the somewhat of the emotional and mental toll that this job can take? And so and the expectations Right, we have.
Speaker 3:Usually this profession attracts type A personalities who are afraid of making mistakes, who want to be perfect. And to your point, kim, about the practice of law you are practicing every day and you are going to make mistakes. That's right, and you have to learn how to manage those mistakes and live with them. And personally I was saying this to newer associate the other day I've learned way more from my mistakes than I ever did from the things that went wrong. It's true, right, it's so you can't be afraid to make them, but I mean it sucks when you do, but you learn from them. We all make them and you got them and you move on and you learn from it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think that's really great advice. Maybe we should come back and we can talk about two lawyer families and how we navigate the world interestingly with two lawyers.
Speaker 3:I'd be happy to especially like with ours, where the personalities are very different and yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that would be very fun. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you, erin. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today. I love talking with you and talking to you generally about your practice. I hope you'll come back and talk, maybe, about some specific labor issues that are cropping up more and more. Just wanted to ask if you had any shout outs you wanted to give at the end of the podcast today.
Speaker 3:So Kim, thank you for prompting that. I will give you full credit to my children. When they asked today, did you shout us out on the podcast, I will say yes, but it's only because Kim Wolf Price made me, and so here's the official shout out to Gianna and Madison I love you. Happy Valentine's Day. That's when this is being recorded.
Speaker 1:So thank you, kim. Yes, well, gianna and Madison shout out for me too, today. So thanks again, erin. Thanks for joining us on the podcast, thank you, thank you. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at LegallyBond at bskcom. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well. ["legally Bond"].
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