Legally Bond
Legally Bond
An Interview with Mirna Santiago, Girls Rule the Law
In honor of Women's History Month, this episode of Legally Bond is a reposting of Kim's conversation with Girls Rule the Law Founder and CEO Mirna Santiago. Mirna talks about the positive impact Girls Rule the Law has on middle school and high school girls, and how important discussions of diversity, equity and inclusion continue to be.
For more information on Girls Rule the Law and how you can get involved, click here.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond, shannok and King. I'm your host, kim Wolf Price. While we talk about issues pertaining to changes in law and law practice on the podcast, we also talk about issues important to our profession, and one of those critical issues is diversity, equity and inclusion, and a lot of that work involves opening doors for others, providing opportunity and working with middle school and high school students. So, on today's episode, I am thrilled and honored to have Myrna Santiago as our guest. Myrna is an attorney with over 20 years of experience, but today we're going to talk about girls' rule of law. This is a not-for-profit which Myrna founded and for which she is the CEO. Welcome to the podcast, myrna. I'm glad you joined us. Thank you for having me Kim.
Speaker 1:We've been having some fun conversations about girls' rule of the law and I'm so happy to be able to speak with you today about girls' rule of the law on the podcast Same year. So we have known each other for a couple years or so now a few years working together on the New York State Bar Association versus the Equity and Inclusion Committee, which you co-chaired for a number of years, and there are so many topics we could cover, from law practice to DEI and bar service, and maybe some of that will come out. But is it okay if today we just focus on girls' rule of the law a little bit more? Absolutely All right, Thank you. So typically on the podcast, I like to start with asking guests to give some background on themselves. I think that listeners appreciate knowing who's speaking to them today. So would you mind telling us a little bit about you, where you're from, attended school, family, whatever you think would be of interest.
Speaker 3:Sure, absolutely. And usually when I talk about myself I start from the very beginning. So I was born in Honduras, central America, and I came to the United States when I was six, had to learn English as a third language. So I think that's always an interesting tidbit because something that I had to overcome not speaking English and having sort of to acculturate into American culture. But from then on, you know, we hit the ground running with my parents and my siblings and I went to NYU for undergraduate, I went to the University of Buffalo Law School and since then I had a very sort of interesting career. I've done everything. I worked in law firms as a litigation associate, corporate associate, I went in-house for several insurance companies. I worked for an almost billion dollar nonprofit before I created and founded Girls' Rule of the Law five years ago.
Speaker 1:Wow, five years ago. Time does kind of fly, I have to say, because we always tend to see each other in New York City. So I love that you went to UB, that you have that Buffalo connection for law school and it's just like an important I don't know piece of your history. That's a little bit different. So how was the snow when you were there? Any favorite parts of UB?
Speaker 3:Oh my God. You know, honestly, I really loved Buffalo. It's just such a beautiful city and of course I was out in Amherst and it's really lovely out there. But I got lonely after a while. As you probably know, the city tends to be a little bit segregated and a lot of the kids who actually go to law school are from the city. So most of my friends came back to the city and I was really lonely. So I was in Buffalo for all of five years three years for law school and then I worked at Phillips Lytle for two years before moving back down to the city. But I do get back every now and then. I have a nephew who's there. I'm not at the law school but at UB, so I do get back every now and again.
Speaker 1:And see I learned something every time. People I've known for years when they come on the podcast. I didn't know you started at a law firm in Buffalo. I love it, that's great, all right. Well, thanks for sharing that. I really appreciate it and I think you're right, it's an important part, particularly for your story, to talk about the fact that you learned English as a third language, and it's important for so that other people, other students I always think of the students where they can't get rid of that perspective sometimes can see themselves in people Right, and so I think it's important that you share that. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and for some of the work that we do, a lot of the work that we do at Girls' Rule, which is really focused on inner city girls. A lot of them come from Puerto Rico, which obviously is part of the United States, but they speak mostly Spanish there to the Dominican Republic, from Central America Guatemala, a lot of them. And for them to hear that I learned English as a third language, that I wasn't born here, right, a lot of them are first generation Americans, as opposed to half generation, which is what I call myself, but for them it's important to see that, okay, someone else overcame the exact same obstacles and is reasonably successful, so I can do that as well.
Speaker 1:I think that's being very humble to say reasonably the really amazing things. So I mentioned that you co-chair of the New York State Bar Association Diversity, equity and Inclusion Committee. What was that experience like?
Speaker 3:It was great. I feel like the New York State Bar Association is one of a few bar associations that actually gets the need for diversity, equity and inclusion, even just changing the name throughout the years. It started off, I think, as minorities in the profession and then it was diversity and inclusion and then during my time there I really pushed for the name change to diversity, equity and inclusion and there was really no pushback on it, right? I think people really understood that as time changes, the way we address the issues of diversity, equity and inclusion also has to change as well, including just the name and what we're calling it.
Speaker 1:I think that it's been important for me to see that folks at the bar are willing to be educated. They're open to that, so I think that's a great point that you just had. So why do you stay involved with Bar Association? Why is it important?
Speaker 3:to you, because I believe it's important to network, it's important to be a part of a community. So, the same way that you would be a part of the community in wherever you live or your family, I think as lawyers we also need to be engaged in that community as well. I don't think I would be as effective a lawyer if I was just sitting on the side of a screen or in my house, as opposed to going to some of these events the annual meeting, youth Law Day, the CLEs that are in person. So I think it's that legal community is very important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, I think it's fantastic and I, of course, love the Youth Law Day shout-out because you made me chair of that subcommittee while we were on. I was meant to yeah, so I love that shout-out. Thanks for sharing the background. All right, so I want to start with the basics. Will you give us an overview of girls rule the law? What is the organization and its general mission?
Speaker 3:Sure. So, as I mentioned before, I founded Girls Rule the Law in 2018. And it had one core mission, and that's a mission that we meet in a whole bunch of different ways. So the core mission is really to create a pipeline into the law, which is the legal field, the legislative and the judiciary for girls, and particularly girls of color, just because women are still severely underrepresented, and women of color even more so, in the professional profession. So that was the focus that I had when I founded it, and it was really to create sort of a networking opportunity, a way for these young ladies to learn the skills that they needed to get into these professions. And I realized that for me, anyway, once I got to college and law school, it was already too late, and so the focus became middle and high school, because I think that's the perfect time to start girls thinking about okay, what is it that I want to do in life? And a way to showcase what women do in the profession to try to get them interested in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a. You make an excellent point there that you know by the time someone gets to college, there are certain expectations and if no one sort of laid some of that ground work to say here's some ways to be successful and you mentioned networking and how important it is and you know, for maybe for individuals who didn't have the opportunity, didn't watch their families networking because parents were working jobs, they were working their way through high school it's an important way to say hey, here are some of the skills so that when you get there you're not like that extra step behind.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and that's something that we try to do at pretty much every event. For girls rule is we'll do a networking breakfast or lunch and then it'll be followed by speed mentoring, you know, sort of like speed dating. Speed mentoring so that the girls can get into the habit of jumping into a situation and explaining you know who they are and learning a little bit about someone to figure out, okay, is this person going to be able to help me at some point in the future? So which is really what networking is right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Well. So you founded the organization because you saw a need and you wanted to help address it. How do you even go about counting an organization like this? It's a big undertaking.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah. Well, initially it was just the thought, right, because everything really does start with that thought. So for me, it was working for this nonprofit in the Bronx and seeing the kids and how underfunded and underprivileged the community was. The neighborhood was where I was working every day and saying to myself these kids will never get the opportunity to interact with women lawyers, judges, legislators. They just won't. It's not part of their daily activities. So for me, it was like we have this problem in the law. Where we really are, you know, there's no diversity, there's very little diversity in the law, and so how do you create that pipeline? So that was me sort of you know, walking to work and thinking to myself how do I get these kids interested in what I do, which is the law and that's you know. That was the idea for Girls Rule of the Law, and then it was just a program initially because in 2016, when I first got that idea, I said, okay, let me put on a youth conference and invite girls from around the city and that way we I can see if there's actually an interest in this. That's good point. It was.
Speaker 3:We had over 200 girls at that point at the New York City Bar. They took the day off from school, they got the permission slips they needed and we invited a whole bunch of women judges, legislators, assembly women. We had at the time Manhattan Borough President Gail Brewer. We had at the time the New York State Bar Association president, sharon Gershman. So you know, we had all of these women that descended on the New York City Bar Association. All of these girls came and I was like, okay, there's a real need. So from there I formalized it, I made it into a nonprofit and that became Girls Rule of the Law Inc. And initially for that it was just again the thought of okay, maybe we'll do an annual youth conference and bring these women and girls together. And then school started reaching out to me. The schools that had gone to the program started asking that's great, can you do debate, can you do mock trial, can you have law days? Can you bring women here to our schools? And that's how Girls Rule of the Law came to be.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love it that you're walk to work and you're like, okay, I got to fix this, there's got to be a way I can help address this. So you talked about the conference, but what other types of events and programming does girls rule the law provide?
Speaker 3:We provide a lot. So a little bit of what I just mentioned is I go into the middle schools and the Bronx. I personally, and of course, volunteers. We go and we'll teach mock trial. Well, I just accepted a debate program for our high school in Manhattan, in Harlem, and then I did an introduction to debate for fifth graders in the Bronx. Love it. Yes, I do law day. So sometimes the schools will reach out to us and they'll say we know that you had this conference and we really wanted to go, but we couldn't afford the buses or, you know, we couldn't afford whatever it was, to pay the teachers, the chafferones or whatever for the day. So I started doing law days at the schools, bringing the entire program to the school. So we have one of those coming up on April 28th at IS 229 in the Bronx. So you know, those are the types of programs we do.
Speaker 3:We have targeted legal lessons. We go into the high schools the high schools that would ask for it, and we'll say what do you want to learn about? So it's basically know your rights. I'm going to give a shout out to Mercedes Cohen, who is the partner at Gordon and Reese, because every year she does a month long labor and employment lessons for us and it's, you know, it's a month and one time a week that she'll go into the schools and she'll teach labor and employment. And then we have entertainment lawyers who do it for us as well targeted legal lessons on entertainment. What goes into a contract? What should you be looking at?
Speaker 3:We now have a memorandum of understanding with the judges of the appellate division, first department, and they're going into the schools as well and doing targeted legal lessons on appeals and litigation. I have a friend who is a law professor and she teaches on constitutional law, stop and frisks and stuff like that. So it's kind of it's ad hoc and it's really whatever the schools need. So if they come to us and they'll, they say, can you create programming for us for this semester or can you teach our kids debate or mock trial? Then I'll reach out to my volunteers and say, okay, can you do this for me?
Speaker 1:That's amazing. It does seem like it's going to take a lot, depend a lot on volunteers and donations. So that must be true. How do you, how can people get involved?
Speaker 3:So the first step would really be to go online and look at our website. So it's wwwgirlsrulethelaworg and there's a bright pink donate button. So if you can donate, that's really the best way to help. We also need volunteers, always so like we have an event coming up on March 23rd at the courthouse in the Bronx and for that we just need bodies, right, so we're doing a speed mentoring there. So we need women to sit there and talk to the girls. We need women to help, you know, hand out the food during the networking lunch. So we always need volunteers. And, of course, you know, in order for us to get the food, to give them a few giveaways, whether it's a t-shirt or a bag or whatever. We need money for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and you have a board and others you work with. Do you want to talk a little bit about them?
Speaker 3:So my board is a little bit odd in that they're not all lawyers on the board, so everyone's always a little bit surprised about that. But the chair of my board, her name, is Juana Pacheco and she's actually coming from a fundraising and event planning background. So she, you know, she worked for the Hispanic Heritage Foundation and she just really knows how to put on an event. And I owe a debt of gratitude to Juana because she's one of those people who, like, especially during the pandemic, we're sitting there and I'm telling her I said, well, I guess we're sidelined right For the year her ever longest tent and she's like, absolutely not. We're doing virtual fireside chats now. And then that's how we started doing the leadership lessons. Right, we called and that was her name as well Strength has no gender and then so every month we have a leadership lesson. They're all on YouTube and we talk about something.
Speaker 3:Whether it's the last one I think we did was what happens if you drop a donkey right From Encanto, what happens if you make a mistake and you think this is the end of the world, and it was really about perseverance and persistence and picking yourself up. So she does that. And then we have someone who's from a community organizing background and she has a lot of contacts with the community leaders, with the legislators, and she's always putting us in touch with people who need our work. I have a person who is a lawyer he does compliance so he makes sure that we are dotting all the I's and crossing the T's, especially when it comes to our compliance work. So the people on my board are really there to make sure that we are meeting our goals going into the future.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic and, having been able to speak with Juana a little bit, I can see her spark to keep things moving and going. So it's a great dynamic and sometimes we lawyers think we know everything, so it's good to have different perspectives, absolutely, and I like having the people from the community.
Speaker 3:So they're the ones who are dealing with the kids every day, or they're the ones who have the daughters, so they can say, well, god, I wish my daughter could learn this, because for me, I'm finding that as I get older, I think I have a pulse on what the youth wants, or it's not necessarily true, so it's always good to have we have two daughters of the people on our board and they'll reach out and say, hey, have you thought about this? Or can you make your t-shirts look like this, because that's what's really hip right now? So stuff like that.
Speaker 1:That is helpful. Yeah, I definitely realize sometimes that I'm further from that than I like to admit. So it's great to have all that perspective Because, basically, the change that you seek, the change they need, exactly, you need to make sure that that's actually part of it. So I think that's fantastic and we talk a lot in DNI work and in the law about building pipelines, about changing the composition of law practice, making sure it's more representative, making sure historically excluded groups have access. This is significant. There's a big significance and importance for organizations like Girls Rule the Law. What do you think that significance is to the girls?
Speaker 3:I think it's the first time that they've seen it be possible for them. So for a lot of the girls they walk into the New York City bar, for instance, with the marble columns and what have you, and they're like this is the first time they've been in somewhere that's so great. It's the first time that they're having one-on-one conversations with lawyers and judges and legislators. Some of the girls were like oh, I can't believe.
Speaker 3:Assemblywoman Latoya Joiner sat down with me for the whole lunch and actually listened to what I had to say. So for me it's really important to show these girls that they are important, that they have something of value to add to a profession like the law, and that no one should be able to tell them they can't do it. But I think the most important piece for them especially seeing a Gail Brewer or Latoya Joiner or me is that if they can see it, they can be it. So if someone can come from a place like Honduras and learn English as a third language, then what's stopping them being born here and already speaking the language?
Speaker 1:I think that's important. All those possible important and valuable, that's all very important, and I was like that when I walked in there the first time and saw those big columns. So you know, and when we do, when you and I worked on Youth Law Day, it's striking the number of students who are like, oh, I've never met a lawyer before, exactly yeah, and so it's such an important thing. What is the importance to our profession of these groups like Girls Rule the Law?
Speaker 3:Well, I think our profession needs to make space for girls and women with different lived experiences. One of the things that I tell the girls all the time and this is an example that I give them is I'll say if you come to my house and I open the door and I say I don't allow shoes in my house, what are you going to do? They're like I'm going to take off my shoes. Now, if I go to your house and you have a set of rules, right, what do I have to do? Well, you have to follow my rules because it's my house. I said well, that's the same exact thing as our country. So if you have someone who doesn't have your lived experience and they're at the top and they're making all the rules but they don't apply to you or they're not good for you, then how do you fix that? And they're like well, you have to figure out how to get to the top so you can have a say in those rules. And that's exactly what girls rule. The law is.
Speaker 1:I love it. That's fantastic. What would you say to people attorneys in particular, of course looking to find ways to get involved and give back, to pay it forward to the next generation?
Speaker 3:Get involved. Get involved with organizations like Girls' Rule. Get involved with the Bar Associations, because we've talked a lot about the New York State Bar Association, but of course, the city bar, the local affinity bars, also do a lot of giving back the Hispanic, the National Association, there are a lot of organizations that are involved in youth organizations and just giving back to the community in general. I think that would be. My advice is to get involved. Yeah, get started.
Speaker 1:Don't just wait for that perfect moment. A lot of your involvement in organizations not just Girls' Rule a lot it's at the space of DEI or DEIB space. So diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging it's critical, but often left to just a few people in organizations and often left to people of color or from excluded backgrounds. I guess by question is we're not going to make lasting change without truthful conversations, are we?
Speaker 3:We're not. That's the way I start off. Every one of my workshops on DEI is if you are comfortable, then you're not learning. People are always taken aback by that. I don't want you to sit in my workshop or my presentation for 90 minutes and not along and not be learning anything. I want you to squirm a little bit when I show you the statistics about how few women are still in positions of power or how many people of color are still not where they need to be in terms of the law.
Speaker 3:I want you to be uncomfortable when I talk to you about segregation and redlining and the fact that, even though this was done in our country, no one ever undid it. No one ever took those railroad tracks down or the highways separating those communities. No one ever took those projects down that are built on superfund sites and creating cancer and asthma for people. I want you to be uncomfortable because I want you to ask the questions okay, well, what do we do next? Not just okay, this is where we are now. What can we do next?
Speaker 3:Who do I need to talk to? Who do I need to reach a handout to to get them out of that situation? And I think it's important also to point that out, that the only way to achieve any sort of quality of life right now is to get out of those neighborhoods. So who's left behind? So, for all of us that are leaving the communities because it's not the place you want to be to raise your kids, or you don't feel safe, or it's dirty or it's whatever, then who is being left behind? So that's really the conversation we need to have.
Speaker 1:This comfort can be complacency. If you're comfortable, you're like everything's okay, exactly, yeah, that makes perfect sense. What are some of the misconceptions you think of DEI work?
Speaker 3:I think some of the misconceptions are that it's one and done and that's something that I'm fine. Well, two things. One is that that you can give in to the fatigue, honestly. I was speaking to a friend of mine and I think you know her as well, but I won't name her here where we were talking about Law Roach, and Law Roach is a stylist, so it doesn't look like it's related to the law. But when you actually except for the fact that his name is Law but when you actually sit and listen to the last interview that he gave, he just quit. He was like I give up styling people because I'm so tired of the microaggressions, I'm tired of going to the fashion shows and sitting in the front that I was assigned on the front row, and then someone will come over and say, hey, I think you're sitting in the wrong spot, right, because as a black man, he's like I don't look like I belong there. So when she and I were talking about that, we're like, oh my God, that could be you or me saying that, because I say that all the time.
Speaker 3:I actually took a break for about six months. I'm going to get started again next month with a workshop, because I was just so exhausted of people just not getting it when people say, oh, we've hired X, y and Z women, people of color, but they leave, so oh well, and they throw up their hands like that's all they're ever going to do and my question is okay, so what are you doing next? Where are you getting the next group of people of color that you're going to try to come in? Are you doing lateral hiring so that there's a noist arc sort of feeling right? Because if I walk in somewhere and no one is of color or there's no woman, then I will assume that your organization is openly hostile to women or people of color. What are you doing to change that perception? So it really gets tiresome having to repeat the same thing over and over.
Speaker 1:So do you have any advice or how do you sort of work through that to keep going on this important work?
Speaker 3:Well, I think, for all of us, because it's so important to us, because I want to see that change in the next generation. That's exactly what gets me up out of bed in the morning. So, yes, every once in a while I'll be like you know what? I'm not taking on any more presentations, I'm not going to do the workshops. And then the following month I say to myself well, you know what, I have to get back at it, because if I don't do it, then it's not going to get done. So I think that's really it is know when to take a break so that you don't reach burnout, but then keep going. That's the only way to get it done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just have to get up again and keep going and make some good friends who do the work. I think along the way.
Speaker 3:Exactly and make allies right. You have to meet allies, and if you don't meet the allies, you have to make them. You have to be able to explain to someone. This is why this is important to me, and I think that's something that I've learned. How to do is to be able to explain to people. Okay, why are you a stakeholder? Being a white man, for instance? Right, so why should this matter to you?
Speaker 1:We have a few, and I've started this conversation, but seems to me like change won't happen until we get those folks to know that this matters to them Exactly. That's a different episode. We'll do that episode. But so Girls Rule the Law. It's an important organization. Are the girls part of what keeps you going?
Speaker 3:as well. The girls are definitely what keep me going and it's always funny because it's the same trajectory. The schools are the ones that want the programming. The girls don't realize they want it. So I'll start off at a school and the girls are just like, oh, are you here? Like leave me alone. I don't want to learn debate, I don't want to learn my trial.
Speaker 1:We both had teenagers in our house. We understand.
Speaker 3:And then as we go through the semester or the weeks or whatever, and then we start getting towards the end, they get excited. You know, we have a lawsuit to you program that's what we call it at Girls Rule and we'll get them professional wear. So we'll, if they have debate or mock trial or even if they just feel like they want to sue so and we'll get them a suit, we'll get a sponsor woman for them, get them a shell, a suit, shoes, and they love that, they love to be able to dress up and look like professional women. So yeah, for me, seeing that transformation from the beginning to the end is really gratifying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's pretty amazing. That's pretty amazing. Well, before we wrap up, do you want to talk about some of the upcoming programs for Girls Rule, while you mentioned a little bit that you have something coming up in April and a few other things. So anything you want to mention?
Speaker 3:Yes, so we have a law day that we are bringing to IS229 on April 28th and we're doing the networking lunch and the speed mentoring. We're doing a law lesson that's going to be stripped down so the kids understand it their middle school kids and then we have our eponymous youth conference or Girls with the Law Youth Conference in October and we're going to be doing one downstate and one upstate for the first time. I'm really excited about that, especially having gone to law school in Buffalo. So we're trying to do it at Syracuse Law School, as you know, and hopefully we'll start getting the planning on that and getting some girls in from all you know, from Syracuse, rochester, buffalo and yeah yeah, it's fantastic.
Speaker 1:I already got the professor who does a great stop and frisk conversation and all of that stuff in a great mock class and whatever you need. I've got some folks on board. So I'm really excited for to bring that upstate and then you know we'll start in Syracuse, then maybe next year at Syracuse Can't baffle it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would love that. Yeah, we have been talking about bringing it upstate for a while, but it wasn't, of course, until we had the conversation with you and I'm like, well, can you can be the chair of that planning committee. So yeah, I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 1:I'm excited about it too, and I think right now I'd like to volunteer Lily and Moy to come join us, and she likes to volunteer me for things. So let's do that.
Speaker 3:Let's see if we can, let's bring Lily in, and she's got all the time in the world now.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly so. Lily was the executive director for the late society of Northeast New York and she just retired and a great ally and all of this work and champion. So yeah, let's do that, mary. What do you think I?
Speaker 3:would love it. I will. I am going to email Lillian right now.
Speaker 1:It's great, all right. Well so any final words regarding girls' rules, a lot before we wrap up.
Speaker 3:We can always use volunteers, and I don't like to think that I'm the smartest person in the room. I don't remember who it was that said that that that's the way you get better is by having people who are smarter than you, and I think that's my board and that's the people that I work with, so I am open to ideas. If there's any ideas for programming, any other things that we can bring to these girls, by all means please reach out to me. I'm always accessible. Go to wwwgirlswithalotorg. Take a look at some of the work that we're doing. We're always accepting professional wear for these young ladies, and that's about it. Just get involved.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic, and I know producer Kate will add that website into the little post on the podcast. So no escaping and everyone. It's right there. You don't have to have written it down, you'll be able to just click on it. So thanks, mirna. I could talk to you for hours. There's so much great work that you do and I always learn from you. I know how busy you are and I appreciate you taking the time for this podcast. I'm excited for the Upstate version of your conference. Thanks also for your work with Girls, with a Lot, and your leadership at the Bar Association, which continues on so many things the insular cases and so much more. I feel truly lucky to get to work with you and to get to know you through this work. So thanks for joining the podcast today.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, kim, and producer Kate.
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