Legally Bond
Legally Bond
An Interview with Katherine Schafer, Labor and Employment
In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond labor and employment attorney Katherine Schafer. Katie discusses workplace investigations and talks about how curiosity is an important quality for a successful legal career.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond, fennec and King. I'm your host, kim Wolf-Rice. Today we're talking with Katie Schaefer, a member of the firm who works at Bond's Syracuse office. Katie is a labor and employment attorney assisting Bond's management side employer clients. Hey, katie, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1:So with employer side labor and employment law there are so many topics that we could cover. I'm hoping today we can speak generally about labor and employment law, a little bit about you, of course, and maybe focus a bit on the issues of investigations in the employment law context. Does that work for you sort of as our roadmap today? I love it, let's do it All right. Sounds great, but in the podcast Legally Blonde it is a tradition that we ask our guests first to tell us a little bit about themselves, so that listeners can get to know you, so that lawyers aren't scary but just regular people that they may know or meet. So if you wouldn't mind telling a little bit about yourself, whatever you want to share, where you grew up, undergrad, law school, family, whatever you think you'd like to share, Absolutely so.
Speaker 2:I consider myself lucky enough to be a homegrown member of the firm. I'm from the Syracuse area, grew up in a little village of Weedsport, which is West of Syracuse. I did my undergrad at Hobart and William Smith colleges, located on Seneca Lake, which is beautiful. It's so beautiful. Yeah, it's absolutely gorgeous. I studied philosophy and psychology there. You know we were. It's a your traditional kind of liberal arts college, so you did classes out on the quad. It's gorgeous. I went to law school at Syracuse university college of law, as you know, kim.
Speaker 1:Yes, I have to say for the first class I ever taught. Katie was one of my students.
Speaker 2:Which amazing. And Kim always lets me get away with this by saying that neither of us have aged since then, so it's just tremendous.
Speaker 2:Yeah so and then I summered here at Bond before joining the firm. So I live in Baldwin'sville now with my husband Dan, our two kids, carter and Charlotte, and they keep us very busy on basketball courts or soccer fields or concerts, which, you know, we honestly wouldn't have it any other way. And we also have our very adorable but mischievous golden doodle, miles, who likes to get in trouble and keep us busy. And you know in our free time which, if there is a thing, we like to go to SU games. We're season ticket holders for basketball and we try to get out to Wisconsin at least once a year for a Green Bay Packers game.
Speaker 1:I love that Go Packo yes, that's awesome. I love seeing the pictures of the kids. I love like getting a little glimpse into how everyone's doing. And you're you know this is the time of year, it's June, so end of the school year, lots of concerts and lots of games and very busy time.
Speaker 2:The concerts and the festivals and the spirit days and the. It's all good, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there are some times that the spirit days though, you don't get notified until just the night before, and that's a stressful parenting moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes you are making some last minute costumes or spirit wear, but you know you find a way to get it done.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, we should probably teach a class on that in law school or something I think so Well. Thanks so much, katie. I always enjoy the background part and I think our listeners do as well, so thank you for sharing a little bit about you. So you wore a summer law clerk here at Bond, as you mentioned, so you're homegrown two ways here at Bond. You joined after graduation. What were some of the specific things about labor and employment law that drew you to this work?
Speaker 2:So when I came in as a summer, I really had no idea what kind of law I wanted to practice, and it's always one of the things that I tell candidates or new attorneys come in. That I really love about the way our firm is set up in our summer program is that you get to rotate through all our different departments and you get a sense of not only who works there but what that work is like, because it can be really different from learning about that area of the law. So that was really my first taste of labor and employment law and I just kind of fell in love with it. I love the people I work with. I love, you know, their clients that we have.
Speaker 2:I love the work that we do. It's never, ever dull, it's never your day is never what you'd expect it to be, but you know, I have some really wonderful colleagues that are really great to work with and I think the way we practice is really collegial and that's a really nice way to service your clients. And I think the work that we do is really interesting because you know, in one way or another, you're working with humans, right? You're working with real world problems. You're talking to people. You're helping them solve their problems and we have the benefit of having a lot of like longstanding relationships with clients, so it's nice you feel like you're working together towards solutions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you talk about it being so different, I mean it covers so many topics in labor and employment. It's everything from the federal laws, like the Americans with Disabilities Act, to Title VII, title IX, family medical leave. Osha comes into play, right. And then there's the state laws, including New York State Human Rights Law, which I found out the other day is like 69 years old or something like that. Now Pay transparency, which has been changing a lot. We won't even get into what was happening during COVID. But plus there's organized labor, which people would call unions. There's employee separations, terminations, disciplines, hiring. Really, it cannot be every day is the same right. Is every day totally different.
Speaker 2:Completely, and it's almost never what you expect If you have a game plan for what you think you're going to do that day or what's going to happen. It usually doesn't turn out that way, but it's fun. It keeps it interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean these are all issues you said there. There's the human side, of course, but it's also so critical to any business, right? It's how do your employees fit in and how does it operate? Right, it's just the key piece of any business, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know my work is. It really varies. So, like you said, I do kind of that traditional labor work from contract negotiations and grievances and arbitrations to employment litigation, defense, to kind of everyday counseling. You know policies or you have a performance issue or a disciplinary issue or a separation issue or reduction in force. You need to do conducting trainings and also I do a lot of conducting workplace investigations these days too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I want to definitely spend some time on that and we talk about that. Right, not only are these issues important to businesses, but you said there's a human side. So being employed, having a job, making a wage, it's important to the individuals, clearly. So the facts from time to time must get very personal and must really bring out the side of you that I know that you have, which is someone who can be very poised and very calm and make really just as people as comfortable as you can.
Speaker 2:Well, I hope so. Thank you for saying so. Yeah, I think that's very true. You know, I think these issues tend to be incredibly personal from both perspectives sort of the person, maybe, who is accusing, the person being accused, you know, in their lives, you know, having the understanding that that's probably one of the most important things that's happening at that point in time. I think it's important to go and knowing that, you know, even if this is an issue that I've seen hundreds of times, knowing that is, I think, helpful in understanding how to strategize and how to address the issue and move forward. So and I do think that's true, I think I try to come in with that approach. I know everyone has their own way of doing things and different attorneys have a different approach, approach, and that's great. But I think I've found, kind of as in life in general, approaching a problem with a sort of place of calm and collected and trying to work through it is usually my best ticket.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I imagine you're very, very good at it. So I have to ask then right, we talked, you mentioned it and we said we'd talk about it. But one of the things that comes up and we just call it here at the firm, we just say investigations. I guess we probably need to define that for people. So could you please talk a little bit about what you mean when you say that's part of your practice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. So I think especially of recent clients seem to have a growing need to receive guidance in, or have conducted for them, various investigations. And I think typically what I'm talking about is probably a workplace investigation of some sort, but it can really vary depending on the issue. So typically what happens is client has received either an external or an internal complaint of some sort, notice that there's some sort of issue, and an investigation is either required from you know from a fact-finding perspective, or it's required by law. So it could be a claim of discrimination or harassment or retaliation, for example, you could have a claim of workplace misconduct.
Speaker 2:There could be an issue raised about a violation of company policies, workplace safety, a wage and hour issue. Someone believes they're not getting paid correctly. All those things are reasons why it's important to do sort of a fact finding, to understand what those facts are, so that you can move forward with that solution right. And for my school district clients those sometimes also involve student issues too. So bullying things like dignity for all students, act issues, athletics tend to be a big issue as well. So it's they all kind of have the common core of you're trying to get to the understanding of a determination of what we believe happened and that way we can move forward, looking at our policies or what's our solution. How do we, how do we move on from here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you're doing those, you must have to. I mean, obviously you know the law, but review the law or the standard, the regulation, whatever comes into play. Maybe it's the handbook, right? The handbook of the employer. So refresh on all of that and then figure out what's going on, using those as your guideposts, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's actually a lot. I mean, I think sometimes, especially if you're an employee or complainant coming forward, you think, well, this is simple, what I'm saying is true, you should believe me, and end of story. But I think you know, obviously a thorough, complete investigation has a lot of steps to it. You know there are trying to intake the complaint, understand what those issues are, knowing the law is kind of in the background there, whatever it may be the human rights law, you know the AD, whatever that background is right. Knowing your client's policies, getting informed on the background from the client, because none of this happens in a vacuum.
Speaker 2:It's not like one day we all of a sudden had a conflict and everything was sunshine and roses before then. Right, there's always some sort of backstory which is helpful to understand. So, yeah, and then you want to dive into those policies. They have, any documents they have. Sometimes you're reviewing video, surveillance video or texts or emails, and anything you can get your hands on really is helpful. And then you're speaking to people, you're conducting interviews, you know, of the complainant, of witnesses, of the accused, and when you're done with all that and you've looked at you know your collective bargaining agreement or the applicable law and collecting all your data, you finally come to that determination and there's usually a report out of some sort you know to the client as to I believe this is what happened, and oftentimes that comes with recommendations as to how to move forward. What's the best solution.
Speaker 1:And so you must have to be naturally curious to enjoy doing these.
Speaker 2:You do, you do, and I honestly think it's very fascinating. And maybe it's like those psych courses I was able to take in undergrad. But I love trying to dig into the issues here and hear from people and kind of figure out what motivates them, their perspective, what actually happened here. You know, trying to get into all those issues I think is actually really fascinating.
Speaker 1:And then we say this a lot. You know when we talk or when we're doing trainings, but as lawyers you have to understand your client's business, whether it's a school district and how they operate, or a private employer, a manufacturer, a municipality. So when you're doing this, obviously you follow the law and the regulations and the policy, the handbooks, but you also have to understand the business, the organization, its operations, its culture, its climate, its goals, like as you're conducting the investigation and helping them decide how to move forward. You kind of have to even take all that in too, don't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're so right. I think that really is critical, both at the outset of trying to like understand the landscape, going in in order to kind of make a determination, but also, you know, once you have a fact determination, to just shift into that advice as to how to help them navigate that issue. It really is incredibly important and you may have the same fact scenario, determination it could be completely different based on the client's goals, objectives, their culture. So it is really important to know your client and thankfully we have the benefit of having a lot of longstanding clients here. So that's really nice when you get to work with them and you feel like you're part of the team and you know kind of that back history already.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I've said to people before, like the difference between client and customer. You know we're lawyers, so we're nerds and we like words, right, but a customer is someone who might like buy a pack of gum and never come back. A client is someone you develop a relationship, who you hope to see again. Maybe they just need to update their handbook. It's not something bad always right, they're not always in crisis, but then when they're in crisis, you're also the person they turn to. So it's about developing a relationship, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I really think that's important. I've had several clients who make the joke of gee, we need to just get you an office space in here, like we're just going to pull you up a desk. We call you so often that you might as well just move in here, which I think is great because you know, you really feel like you're invested in the relationship and it's not just about how much can I bill on this matter. It's trying to really help them be successful and really caring about their business or their operation and them as people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the work, I mean you do so many things. You mentioned collective bargaining, there's handbooks, there's policies, there's all of those things. But in the investigation space it must be very interesting but also challenging at times because the topics can be difficult.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they certainly can at times, because the topics can be difficult. Yeah, they certainly can, and when you think of things like sexual harassment claims, for example, there can be some uncomfortable questions, there can be some really challenging things to talk about. And in doing these, I think you have to be prepared to be able to ask those challenging questions. And sometimes you are calling people on bad behavior or poor choices as I say with my kids, right, poor choices. And you know you have to be able to get through that and to talk about those difficult questions, those difficult topics, and it's sort of addressing it head on rather than kind of letting it. That's the way I like to think about it Like you're being proactive about it, you're addressing the conflict head on instead of letting it linger, kind of, and fester.
Speaker 1:Right and creating a bigger problem down the road. Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. What do you enjoy most about this work generally?
Speaker 2:I really, like I said, I like working with humans. I like working with people, right. I, you know I don't know that I could do a practice where I am just looking at documents all day long. I, you know that feels very impersonal to me. So I really like that. I like trying to understand someone's perspective and you know their motivations and I really like the portion of this work that's sort of solution oriented, right, that it's understanding the issue and then ultimately we're trying to move past it and forward in a productive way and trying to recommend solutions. So I like being a part of that process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I joke sometimes around here. I did internal investigations on the security side when I practiced in New York City but I think if I'd come here, I think I would have been a labor lawyer. I love the interaction piece, right, I love the chances. So when Pete or someone calls me and says, hey, can you look at this, I'm like, yes, I would love to.
Speaker 2:Any day, Kim, we would be, we would love to have you.
Speaker 1:Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about that. And now I have to ask this question. Right, I didn't mention it, but you've been on the recruiting committee for a long time and you kind of hinted to, like the, telling people the importance of the rotation. But what advice might you give someone who says, hey, this is interesting, I'm in law school, maybe I should consider labor and employment law? What advice might you give them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think some of the best thing you can do is to try to take some courses in that area labor and employment law, contracts, employment discrimination, types of courses and see if that's something that resonates with you. Right To have that background that's half the battle. Right To be kind of, have those courses. I, you know I frankly didn't have that until my third year because I didn't even realize this is what I wanted to do. But one of the partners here gave me that advice. So, gee, you should take X, y and Z courses and of course I did and I love them. So that was helpful.
Speaker 2:But I think what you can do too is seek out people who practice in this area and talk with them, try to get a sense of what they do and do they like it. And if that's something that might resonate with you, there's opportunities to get externships in this area too if you can. Clerkships, that kind of thing. Like I said before, our summer program I really love because you get to kind of practice in each little area that we do to get a sense of whether or not you really like it. So I think that's really helpful if you can seek out that kind of program. So, yeah, I think that's some things you can do to start understanding if you like this area or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's great, and you know any of those opportunities where you can see different things. In the end, it allows you to build a bigger network of attorneys to be mentors or people to pass business along to or get business from later, even if it's internally right, like you mentioned, school district clients. You handle the labor, employment side. Then you might pass it to Amy Reinhart or someone else if they're going to build a new pool, right? Yeah?
Speaker 2:absolutely. You know, school districts are funny because they're sort of like their own little like city or entity unto themselves, right. So the labor and employment area I can handle, but there's student issues, there's special education, there's property, there's finance, you know, there's all sorts of other areas that come to and, yeah, it's great to have those referrals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's great to have our deep bench. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I thank you so much. It's always great to speak with you. I'm so glad that we finally connected and you could be on the podcast.
Speaker 2:I hope you'll come back at some point and talk to us maybe about collective bargaining or some of the other things you do here. Thank you for having me. I'd be happy to Terrific.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legallybondedbskcom. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded Until our next talk.
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