Legally Bond
Legally Bond
An Interview with Katherine Schafer, Labor and Employment
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In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond labor and employment attorney Katherine Schafer. Katie discusses workplace investigations and talks about how curiosity is an important quality for a successful legal career.
Labor and Employment Law Discussion
Speaker 1Hello and welcome to Legally Bond , a podcast presented by the law firm Bond , fennec and King . I'm your host , kim Wolf-Rice . Today we're talking with Katie Schaefer , a member of the firm who works at Bond's Syracuse office . Katie is a labor and employment attorney assisting Bond's management side employer clients . Hey , katie , welcome to the podcast . I'm so excited to talk to you today .
Speaker 2Thank you so much for having me . I'm excited to be here .
Speaker 1So with employer side labor and employment law there are so many topics that we could cover . I'm hoping today we can speak generally about labor and employment law , a little bit about you , of course , and maybe focus a bit on the issues of investigations in the employment law context . Does that work for you sort of as our roadmap today ? I love it , let's do it All right . Sounds great , but in the podcast Legally Blonde it is a tradition that we ask our guests first to tell us a little bit about themselves , so that listeners can get to know you , so that lawyers aren't scary but just regular people that they may know or meet . So if you wouldn't mind telling a little bit about yourself , whatever you want to share , where you grew up , undergrad , law school , family , whatever you think you'd like to share , Absolutely so .
Speaker 2I consider myself lucky enough to be a homegrown member of the firm . I'm from the Syracuse area , grew up in a little village of Weedsport , which is West of Syracuse . I did my undergrad at Hobart and William Smith colleges , located on Seneca Lake , which is beautiful . It's so beautiful . Yeah , it's absolutely gorgeous . I studied philosophy and psychology there . You know we were . It's a your traditional kind of liberal arts college , so you did classes out on the quad . It's gorgeous . I went to law school at Syracuse university college of law , as you know , kim .
Speaker 1Yes , I have to say for the first class I ever taught . Katie was one of my students .
Speaker 2Which amazing . And Kim always lets me get away with this by saying that neither of us have aged since then , so it's just tremendous .
Speaker 2Yeah so and then I summered here at Bond before joining the firm . So I live in Baldwin'sville now with my husband Dan , our two kids , carter and Charlotte , and they keep us very busy on basketball courts or soccer fields or concerts , which , you know , we honestly wouldn't have it any other way . And we also have our very adorable but mischievous golden doodle , miles , who likes to get in trouble and keep us busy . And you know in our free time which , if there is a thing , we like to go to SU games . We're season ticket holders for basketball and we try to get out to Wisconsin at least once a year for a Green Bay Packers game .
Speaker 1I love that Go Packo yes , that's awesome . I love seeing the pictures of the kids . I love like getting a little glimpse into how everyone's doing . And you're you know this is the time of year , it's June , so end of the school year , lots of concerts and lots of games and very busy time .
Speaker 2The concerts and the festivals and the spirit days and the . It's all good , though .
Speaker 1Yeah , there are some times that the spirit days though , you don't get notified until just the night before , and that's a stressful parenting moment .
Speaker 2Yeah , sometimes you are making some last minute costumes or spirit wear , but you know you find a way to get it done .
Speaker 1Yes , right , we should probably teach a class on that in law school or something I think so Well . Thanks so much , katie . I always enjoy the background part and I think our listeners do as well , so thank you for sharing a little bit about you . So you wore a summer law clerk here at Bond , as you mentioned , so you're homegrown two ways here at Bond . You joined after graduation . What were some of the specific things about labor and employment law that drew you to this work ?
Speaker 2So when I came in as a summer , I really had no idea what kind of law I wanted to practice , and it's always one of the things that I tell candidates or new attorneys come in . That I really love about the way our firm is set up in our summer program is that you get to rotate through all our different departments and you get a sense of not only who works there but what that work is like , because it can be really different from learning about that area of the law . So that was really my first taste of labor and employment law and I just kind of fell in love with it . I love the people I work with . I love , you know , their clients that we have .
Speaker 2I love the work that we do . It's never , ever dull , it's never your day is never what you'd expect it to be , but you know , I have some really wonderful colleagues that are really great to work with and I think the way we practice is really collegial and that's a really nice way to service your clients . And I think the work that we do is really interesting because you know , in one way or another , you're working with humans , right ? You're working with real world problems . You're talking to people . You're helping them solve their problems and we have the benefit of having a lot of like longstanding relationships with clients , so it's nice you feel like you're working together towards solutions .
Speaker 1Yeah , and when you talk about it being so different , I mean it covers so many topics in labor and employment . It's everything from the federal laws , like the Americans with Disabilities Act , to Title VII , title IX , family medical leave . Osha comes into play , right . And then there's the state laws , including New York State Human Rights Law , which I found out the other day is like 69 years old or something like that . Now Pay transparency , which has been changing a lot . We won't even get into what was happening during COVID . But plus there's organized labor , which people would call unions . There's employee separations , terminations , disciplines , hiring . Really , it cannot be every day is the same right . Is every day totally different .
Speaker 2Completely , and it's almost never what you expect If you have a game plan for what you think you're going to do that day or what's going to happen . It usually doesn't turn out that way , but it's fun . It keeps it interesting .
Speaker 1Yeah , I mean these are all issues you said there . There's the human side , of course , but it's also so critical to any business , right ? It's how do your employees fit in and how does it operate ? Right , it's just the key piece of any business , isn't it ?
Speaker 2Yeah , and you know my work is . It really varies . So , like you said , I do kind of that traditional labor work from contract negotiations and grievances and arbitrations to employment litigation , defense , to kind of everyday counseling . You know policies or you have a performance issue or a disciplinary issue or a separation issue or reduction in force . You need to do conducting trainings and also I do a lot of conducting workplace investigations these days too .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I want to definitely spend some time on that and we talk about that . Right , not only are these issues important to businesses , but you said there's a human side . So being employed , having a job , making a wage , it's important to the individuals , clearly . So the facts from time to time must get very personal and must really bring out the side of you that I know that you have , which is someone who can be very poised and very calm and make really just as people as comfortable as you can .
Speaker 2Well , I hope so . Thank you for saying so . Yeah , I think that's very true . You know , I think these issues tend to be incredibly personal from both perspectives sort of the person , maybe , who is accusing , the person being accused , you know , in their lives , you know , having the understanding that that's probably one of the most important things that's happening at that point in time . I think it's important to go and knowing that , you know , even if this is an issue that I've seen hundreds of times , knowing that is , I think , helpful in understanding how to strategize and how to address the issue and move forward . So and I do think that's true , I think I try to come in with that approach . I know everyone has their own way of doing things and different attorneys have a different approach , approach , and that's great . But I think I've found , kind of as in life in general , approaching a problem with a sort of place of calm and collected and trying to work through it is usually my best ticket .
Speaker 1Yeah , I mean , I imagine you're very , very good at it . So I have to ask then right , we talked , you mentioned it and we said we'd talk about it . But one of the things that comes up and we just call it here at the firm , we just say investigations . I guess we probably need to define that for people . So could you please talk a little bit about what you mean when you say that's part of your practice ?
Speaker 2Yeah , of course . So I think especially of recent clients seem to have a growing need to receive guidance in , or have conducted for them , various investigations . And I think typically what I'm talking about is probably a workplace investigation of some sort , but it can really vary depending on the issue . So typically what happens is client has received either an external or an internal complaint of some sort , notice that there's some sort of issue , and an investigation is either required from you know from a fact-finding perspective , or it's required by law . So it could be a claim of discrimination or harassment or retaliation , for example , you could have a claim of workplace misconduct .
Speaker 2There could be an issue raised about a violation of company policies , workplace safety , a wage and hour issue . Someone believes they're not getting paid correctly . All those things are reasons why it's important to do sort of a fact finding , to understand what those facts are , so that you can move forward with that solution right . And for my school district clients those sometimes also involve student issues too . So bullying things like dignity for all students , act issues , athletics tend to be a big issue as well . So it's they all kind of have the common core of you're trying to get to the understanding of a determination of what we believe happened and that way we can move forward , looking at our policies or what's our solution . How do we , how do we move on from here ?
Speaker 1Yeah , so when you're doing those , you must have to . I mean , obviously you know the law , but review the law or the standard , the regulation , whatever comes into play . Maybe it's the handbook , right ? The handbook of the employer . So refresh on all of that and then figure out what's going on , using those as your guideposts , right ?
Speaker 2Yeah , so there's actually
Navigating Labor and Employment Investigations
Speaker 2a lot . I mean , I think sometimes , especially if you're an employee or complainant coming forward , you think , well , this is simple , what I'm saying is true , you should believe me , and end of story . But I think you know , obviously a thorough , complete investigation has a lot of steps to it . You know there are trying to intake the complaint , understand what those issues are , knowing the law is kind of in the background there , whatever it may be the human rights law , you know the AD , whatever that background is right . Knowing your client's policies , getting informed on the background from the client , because none of this happens in a vacuum .
Speaker 2It's not like one day we all of a sudden had a conflict and everything was sunshine and roses before then . Right , there's always some sort of backstory which is helpful to understand . So , yeah , and then you want to dive into those policies . They have , any documents they have . Sometimes you're reviewing video , surveillance video or texts or emails , and anything you can get your hands on really is helpful . And then you're speaking to people , you're conducting interviews , you know , of the complainant , of witnesses , of the accused , and when you're done with all that and you've looked at you know your collective bargaining agreement or the applicable law and collecting all your data , you finally come to that determination and there's usually a report out of some sort you know to the client as to I believe this is what happened , and oftentimes that comes with recommendations as to how to move forward . What's the best solution .
Speaker 1And so you must have to be naturally curious to enjoy doing these .
Speaker 2You do , you do , and I honestly think it's very fascinating . And maybe it's like those psych courses I was able to take in undergrad . But I love trying to dig into the issues here and hear from people and kind of figure out what motivates them , their perspective , what actually happened here . You know , trying to get into all those issues I think is actually really fascinating .
Speaker 1And then we say this a lot . You know when we talk or when we're doing trainings , but as lawyers you have to understand your client's business , whether it's a school district and how they operate , or a private employer , a manufacturer , a municipality . So when you're doing this , obviously you follow the law and the regulations and the policy , the handbooks , but you also have to understand the business , the organization , its operations , its culture , its climate , its goals , like as you're conducting the investigation and helping them decide how to move forward . You kind of have to even take all that in too , don't you ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think you're so right . I think that really is critical , both at the outset of trying to like understand the landscape , going in in order to kind of make a determination , but also , you know , once you have a fact determination , to just shift into that advice as to how to help them navigate that issue . It really is incredibly important and you may have the same fact scenario , determination it could be completely different based on the client's goals , objectives , their culture . So it is really important to know your client and thankfully we have the benefit of having a lot of longstanding clients here . So that's really nice when you get to work with them and you feel like you're part of the team and you know kind of that back history already .
Speaker 1Yeah , I mean I've said to people before , like the difference between client and customer . You know we're lawyers , so we're nerds and we like words , right , but a customer is someone who might like buy a pack of gum and never come back . A client is someone you develop a relationship , who you hope to see again . Maybe they just need to update their handbook . It's not something bad always right , they're not always in crisis , but then when they're in crisis , you're also the person they turn to . So it's about developing a relationship , isn't it ?
Speaker 2Yeah , absolutely . I really think that's important . I've had several clients who make the joke of gee , we need to just get you an office space in here , like we're just going to pull you up a desk . We call you so often that you might as well just move in here , which I think is great because you know , you really feel like you're invested in the relationship and it's not just about how much can I bill on this matter . It's trying to really help them be successful and really caring about their business or their operation and them as people .
Speaker 1Yeah , so the work , I mean you do so many things . You mentioned collective bargaining , there's handbooks , there's policies , there's all of those things . But in the investigation space it must be very interesting but also challenging at times because the topics can be difficult .
Speaker 2Yeah , they certainly can at times , because the topics can be difficult . Yeah , they certainly can , and when you think of things like sexual harassment claims , for example , there can be some uncomfortable questions , there can be some really challenging things to talk about . And in doing these , I think you have to be prepared to be able to ask those challenging questions . And sometimes you are calling people on bad behavior or poor choices as I say with my kids , right , poor choices . And you know you have to be able to get through that and to talk about those difficult questions , those difficult topics , and it's sort of addressing it head on rather than kind of letting it . That's the way I like to think about it Like you're being proactive about it , you're addressing the conflict head on instead of letting it linger , kind of , and fester .
Speaker 1Right and creating a bigger problem down the road . Yeah , yeah , absolutely so . What do you enjoy most about this work generally ?
Speaker 2I really , like I said , I like working with humans . I like working with people , right . I , you know I don't know that I could do a practice where I am just looking at documents all day long . I , you know that feels very impersonal to me . So I really like that . I like trying to understand someone's perspective and you know their motivations and I really like the portion of this work that's sort of solution oriented , right , that it's understanding the issue and then ultimately we're trying to move past it and forward in a productive way and trying to recommend solutions . So I like being a part of that process .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely . I joke sometimes around here . I did internal investigations on the security side when I practiced in New York City but I think if I'd come here , I think I would have been a labor lawyer . I love the interaction piece , right , I love the chances . So when Pete or someone calls me and says , hey , can you look at this , I'm like , yes , I would love to .
Speaker 2Any day , Kim , we would be , we would love to have you .
Speaker 1Well , I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about that . And now I have to ask this question . Right , I didn't mention it , but you've been on the recruiting committee for a long time and you kind of hinted to , like the , telling people the importance of the rotation . But what advice might you give someone who says , hey , this is interesting , I'm in law school , maybe I should consider labor and employment law ? What advice might you give them ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think some of the best thing you can do is to try to take some courses in that area labor and employment law , contracts , employment discrimination , types of courses and see if that's something that resonates with you . Right To have that background that's half the battle . Right To be kind of , have those courses . I , you know I frankly didn't have that until my third year because I didn't even realize this is what I wanted to do . But one of the partners here gave me that advice . So , gee , you should take X , y and Z courses and of course I did and I love them . So that was helpful .
Speaker 2But I think what you can do too is seek out people who practice in this area and talk with them , try to get a sense of what they do and do they like it . And if that's something that might resonate with you , there's opportunities to get externships in this area too if you can . Clerkships , that kind of thing . Like I said before , our summer program I really love because you get to kind of practice in each little area that we do to get a sense of whether or not you really like it . So I think that's really helpful if you can seek out that kind of program . So , yeah , I think that's some things you can do to start understanding if you like this area or not .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think that's great , and you know any of those opportunities where you can see different things . In the end , it allows you to build a bigger network of attorneys to be mentors or people to pass business along to or get business from later , even if it's internally right , like you mentioned , school district clients . You handle the labor , employment side . Then you might pass it to Amy Reinhart or someone else if they're going to build a new pool , right ? Yeah ?
Speaker 2absolutely . You know , school districts are funny because they're sort of like their own little like city or entity unto themselves , right . So the labor and employment area I can handle , but there's student issues , there's special education , there's property , there's finance , you know , there's all sorts of other areas that come to and , yeah , it's great to have those referrals .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's great to have our deep bench . Yeah , absolutely . Well , I thank you so much . It's always great to speak with you . I'm so glad that we finally connected and you could be on the podcast .
Speaker 2I hope you'll come back at some point and talk to us maybe about collective bargaining or some of the other things you do here . Thank you for having me . I'd be happy to Terrific .
Speaker 1Thank you .
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