Legally Bond
Legally Bond
Bond in Paris, Part Three
In this special summer series of Legally Bond, Kim talks with Bond higher education and Title IX attorney and Olympic Gold Medalist Kristen Thorsness. Kris is traveling to the 2024 Paris Olympics as part of the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) Ad Hoc Division. Part three of this series is a discussion of what Kris has experienced at the games thus far.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond, Chetak and King. I'm your host, Kim Wolfe-Price. Today we have the third installment of our special series celebrating the nexus between the law and sport and, in particular, the Olympic Games. Kristen Thorsness again joins us as our guest, this time from the 2024 Olympics in Paris. As a reminder, Chris is an of-counsel in Bonn's Rochester office, practicing in the area of higher education, particularly Title IX, which is part of the Education Act, and Chris is an Olympic gold medalist and is in Paris for the Summer Games in a very unique role. Hey, Chris, I suppose I should say bonjour.
Speaker 2:Bonjour.
Speaker 1:Aux soeurs. Yes, exactly, and probably I should say, should I say good evening to you, maybe Because, yes, it's getting on, it's six o'clock here my time, so another full day of the Olympics in Paris has already happened for you. Well, thank you for taking the time out of being in Paris and talking to us. I mean, to me that's an ultimate sacrifice and we truly appreciate you.
Speaker 2:No, no, I'm happy to be here and actually my Olympic day is not quite done, because after I finish with you, I'm heading over to the swimming venue to watch the evening swimming program, which will be exciting as can be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to be fantastic. That's great. Yes, I will say that one of my kids is super excited. He's getting a lot of night shifts so he can actually see the games during the day here in the US. But all right. So, if you would, would you please remind our listeners why you were asked to go to Paris for the 2024 games, why you were asked to go to?
Speaker 2:Paris for the 2024 Games. Sure, I'm an arbitrator for the Court of Arbitration for Sport, which is an entity that provides a relatively efficient and quick means for resolving sporting disputes, particularly here at the Olympic Games, when things have to happen very quickly In the middle of a competition schedule. You may have an issue that comes up, and there's a competition coming up in the next day or two, so that you don't have any of the time that you have for traditional types of dispute resolution, and so we move very quickly, and so we have a group of about 12 arbitrators from the Court of Arbitration for Sport here on loan to the IOC on site, so that we can be here and whenever the phone rings.
Speaker 1:Basically, that's great, wow, and you were asked to do that for that combination of Olympic athlete and lawyer that you are right.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I've been told that the athletes really appreciate having somebody who was in their shoes at one point and who understands the whole process of training for the Olympics and preparing for the Olympics and the extreme stress of selection for the Olympics and, you know, just getting ready to compete here, because it's you know, you just take the volume and you just turn it way up because the Olympics is just bigger than anything you've ever experienced as an athlete. Pretty much for most of us anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also it's you know, the two minutes, the five minutes, the whatever amount of time folks are training for this arbitration process can make all the difference in the world.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It can make the difference whether or not they compete yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think I would imagine they'd have great comfort knowing that you fully understand the importance of the Olympics, the importance of sport, and being in their shoes as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope so, and I hope it gives them a little bit of confidence in the process as well.
Speaker 1:So how long before the Games did you have to arrive because of this role?
Speaker 2:Well, the jurisdiction of our court starts 10 days before opening ceremonies. So I arrived 10 days before opening ceremonies. I arrived on Wednesday morning and I had my first case on Thursday noon-ish.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay, so you know time difference. Whatever aside, you were already working.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's part of why I still don't really know what day or what time it is. And again, when we do these cases, you know the papers come in, we are, we receive a call. I happened to be out the office at the time, so, but otherwise, a few days later when I got a call, I was on the train on my way to the Musee d'Orsay and got a call. We have a case, we need you to come back. So I just, you know, get off, switch platforms, go back. Yeah, so things move pretty quickly. We set briefing schedules, we set a hearing time, which is usually the next day at some point, and identify not only all the parties but any interested parties who haven't been named in the original application. So everybody who has skin in the game is notified and can participate if they desire to do so.
Speaker 1:And do you sit on a panel every time, or sometimes are you a solo arbitrator?
Speaker 2:It varies. My first case here was a. I was part of a three member panel, but then my second case, I was sole arbitrator, so it was just me, although we have staff attorneys from Cass who assist us with some research and some other things, but yeah, I had to do that one by myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it must be so busy. Like you said, you're on the way, you're like, okay, well, I guess I have time. I'll go to the museum or I'll get off the train and go back. You mentioned that you went back to the office. So there is a set location, sort of temporary housing forecast, to call an office isn't there.
Speaker 2:Yes, actually, we have a floor of the Paris courthouse and we're up on the 29th floor, so we do have a lovely view of the city, and so we have this whole floor and it's all very secure because you're in a courthouse, of course, which is great, because there have been apparently I'm always amazed to hear this attempts to hack Cass computers before and hack into our systems at the Olympics. We don't communicate about cases on email. It's all done very carefully. We're very careful about talking about our cases with others around us. We go to pretty great lengths to keep a lid on what's going on inside the cast.
Speaker 1:I mean. So I watch too many movies and too many sports, but it has this feeling of like a movie where, like you know, it's like you get a phone call and you return and find out your orders and go from there. It adds like another layer of sort of international intrigue to all of this.
Speaker 2:I guess so.
Speaker 1:I guess so, but I think it's important, right, because so much is riding on this and the time frame is so quick.
Speaker 2:That's correct. That's correct. And, yeah, everything moves really fast and long days. Then, when you have a case, you're working it. And particularly on the case where I was a sole arbitrator and I had to do all the drafting and all of the preparation for the hearing, and those were pretty long days. I was working 13 hours a day there for about three or four days. And oftentimes what we'll do is, particularly when there's a real short deadline, the arbitrator or the panel of arbitrators will issue what's called an operative award very quickly after the hearing, which basically just says yes or no, and then the full decision comes out later, within a few days usually. But that way the participants get a quick answer and don't have to wait for the fully reasoned decision, which just takes time to write, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, because it could set precedent for another decision.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:To be fully thought out. So, overall, what is this experience like? Because you're, basically you're part of the cast delegation, in a way, right Part of this, this group. What has that experience been like, meeting the other arbitrators and being part of this?
Speaker 2:team. It's been beyond what I had even hoped it would be. The arbitrator group are just fantastic. We have. We have a few from australia, austria, paraguay, egypt, uh. France, england, gee. Egypt, france, england, gee, where else? I'm sure I'm missing something Swiss, but everybody's just very, very collegial and friendly. We have a real good time together.
Speaker 2:We were out last night because the cast staff is switching out. The ones who are here are going home now and are being replaced by new staff, and so we were all out last night fetting them and had just a great time, you know, laughing together, you know. So we work hard, but we also are having a really good time working together and just being together. It's great. They're great people, they're smart people. They are very accomplished in their own countries. One member of cast group here was the head of world rowing for I think nine years and has done all kinds of things at upper levels of sport in Australia. Another member of our group, also an Australian, was a federal judge in Australia and sits on pretty much every top level sporting commission there. So it's it's. It's pretty heady company. So I've been having a wonderful time with that.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. I mean, what a great experience, and I you know, knowing you, what I. What I really love for you is that you had this amazing Olympic experience in 84 as an athlete part of the team and now you're getting to have another really amazing, totally different Olympic experience.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's seeing the Olympics from a very different perspective and much more operational, but at the same time, the decisions that we make here have direct impact on athletes competing or not competing or the scope of their competition, and so we're all very much aware of that, and I think I bring that lens in a bit more than perhaps some of the others who haven't, who haven't competed at the level that I did. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And then of course I also sort of love that, the nerdy part that like law and regulation matters and everything right.
Speaker 2:Oh, of course you can't. You can't escape the law.
Speaker 1:You know, we're all watching and cheering and I'm jumping off of the sofa at home. But like there is something, knowing that there are rules, there is a plan, people are heard when they have a dispute and then it's happening in this almost the same kind of record time that the events are occurring, it's pretty powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if sometimes the athletes aren't here yet, like, for instance, my sole arbitration, the athlete was in the Cook Islands, which is a 12 hour time difference from here in Paris, so we conducted the hearing beginning at eight o'clock Paris time, so it would be 8 pm the Cook Islands time. The athlete was there, some officials were there, the athlete's attorney was in Sydney, so we had to take all that into account when we were setting up the time for the hearing. But yeah, it all happens pretty quickly.
Speaker 1:We keep talking about the Paralympics, which it is, but what happens, if you know? Surfing's in Tahiti, and I saw women's soccer playing in Marseille the other day. Would you all hear that? Or are there people in those locations as well?
Speaker 2:No, we would hear that, but it would just be done remotely with video conferencing. And we've been doing some hearings that are video where the parties are far away, like my case with the athlete in the Cook Islands, and then we also have done some hearings where there were some people were remote and other people were actually in the room and it really kind of depends upon where people are, you know what's convenient for them. The ad hoc court is a little different. Generally speaking, cas likes to have live hearings. Just any litigator knows that you want to be able to really see a person's entire body when they're testifying and making eye contact and all that sort of thing that you really can't. It doesn't work so well with over Zoom, but for the ad hoc we do. You know it moves quickly and so we do whatever is convenient for the parties and the witnesses.
Speaker 1:That would be another time zone difference for you. If it was a surfing case, then yes, it would be be it would be that's pretty amazing. Well, I have to ask you because, um, I believe you were there, but what was like the opening ceremonies for the olympics in sort of this different way in this, you know, delicate seating?
Speaker 2:well, one problem about problem about being an athlete at the opening ceremonies you don't really get to see the whole ceremony. Yeah, you, you see your little piece right. So I got to see the whole thing and we had really good seats down in the Trocadero and, despite the rain, we had a great time and everybody I was with loved it. We were sitting right near well, the Eiffel Tower was just straight out from where we were sitting. So all the laser shows and then they had these big jumbotrons so that you could see all the different pieces, because it was it was really sort of, in many ways, a made for TV ceremony. There was a lot of video involved and so we got to watch that on the big screens. And then all the all the performance art along the way along the Seine and in different locations in Paris. It was just really so dramatic, you know, and to see the boats come up the Seine and then athletes would get off the boats and then they came into the Trocadero, where we were, and so there were athletes there and the Olympic flag and all of that. It was really, it was really a wonderful experience.
Speaker 2:Then I just have to say anybody who didn't like this year's opening ceremonies. I think they're missing the boat literally, because it was fantastic and it was wild and it was creative and it was. It honored tradition in many ways and broke new ground and was just really spectacular. I just I loved it. It start to finish. I cried, you know. I'm sure you know I cry easily, but I cried and it was really. It was a real special experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I thought it honored everything back to the Greeks, right? You know, it really took the history of the Olympics and then put a Parisian flair right above that, dionysus was there in his blue body paint. It's art, right, it's Paris. It's art and sport coming together, right, right.
Speaker 2:You know, if you can't understand that, you've.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe don't take the train to the Dorsey.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. Or maybe they need to take the train to the Dorsey, but anyway, maybe that's right. That's right.
Speaker 1:or maybe they need to take the train to the Dorsey, but anyway, maybe that's right, maybe they do, which is one of my favorite, that and the Picasso museum there favorite spot. They're both beautiful, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not smart enough to really understand modern art, I think, but I love the Impressionists and I love sculpture, and so so the Dorsey is also just beautiful. I just so, it's fabulous.
Speaker 2:That's just walking around Paris. The architecture everywhere is spectacular and I love, I love just the apartment buildings. You know they all have these, all these little chimneys on top and the little windows with little balconies. You know, it's all very Parisian and I love it, I just. And then there's I was down by the opera house today, love it, I just. And then there's I was down by the opera house today. It's just fabulous and sculpture and these big golden statues on the top on the roof and just really unlike almost anything you see anywhere in the united states, just very dramatic and beautiful and and and lovely well, and the oldest building that we see in the us right like are just, they're still considered new buildings there.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes yes, yes. Well, you've mentioned some of the highlights, like the opening and just seeing Paris right and being in Paris, but I have to ask about the sporting events. So do you have some favorite moments to date as a spectator?
Speaker 2:Well, sure, when we're not working, we are fortunate enough to have all access passes so we can go to any event we like, and I was at the gymnastics last night for the women's team competition final, which was incredible, watching all of the athletes, but particularly Simone Biles, who's just in a universe of her own. You see her on TV and it's very impressive, but seeing it live was just a whole other experience and the house was rocking and every time she stood up the place went crazy and it was really exciting and energetic and spectacular and I was so happy to have been able to go and see her perform. Just the athleticism is just amazing and the level of difficulty of what she does is, even to a person who doesn't really know that much about gymnastics, very obvious, right and obviously higher than these elite competitors from around the world. It was really amazing. There was a woman on the Brazilian team who I think probably served in the ballpark, but otherwise it was just a whole different ball of wax, as they say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think she has something like six moves now named after her Simone Biles. Yeah, something like five or six, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just incredible the impact she has had on the sport, the impact she continues to have on the sport and, frankly, not just gymnastics.
Speaker 1:I was going to say that.
Speaker 2:She's had. She's had a tremendous impact on sport generally, both for men and women, and we all owe her a great deal of respect and gratitude for what she's what she's done and how she's dealt with her struggles in a very public arena and carries herself with such grace. You know there's a lot of people who wouldn't handle those kinds of circumstances very well. You know you can tell that she's a person of character.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I will say that a lot of the all the women athletes like yourself who came before her right helped get her to this spot. But she's now a role of the all the women athletes like yourself who came before her right helped get her to this spot. But she's now a role model for men and women to say you can control your life in sport and right like you can control your trajectory. You do not have to just say yes, you can, you can and look and she's still like and she's remarkable and she's done so much. But part of it is the fact that she's taken some of that control back that I think for athletes for years and years and years never thought they had that's right.
Speaker 2:That's right. I mean, we're used to just sort of being doing what we're told and you know and shut up and don't complain and just do your work. That was fine for me, I didn't mind, but I also operated in a different kind of environment than she does. I mean, it's just, you know, insane to think of the pressure. You know, we went into the Olympics in 1984 favored to win, but it was nothing like the hype and the pressure and the noise around someone like her and to see her handle it with such grace is really impressive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, pretty amazing. Well, I hope that, if it's swimming or whatever else is next, if you're going to the Olympic pool or wherever that it's equally as exciting, is that your plan? Maybe some swimming?
Speaker 2:Yeah, tonight I'm going back over to the swimming. I've spent several nights there. I've been sort of spending my mornings at the rowing course and my evenings either at the swimming or, last night, at gymnastics. And I have to put in a plug for the US rowing team, which is doing in many ways better than expected.
Speaker 2:Starting tomorrow, we have, I'd say, three and maybe four boats that will be strong contenders for medals, which is a distinct improvement over Tokyo where, for the first time since the early 1900s, the US rowing team didn't win any medals, and we have several boats that are in position to really contend for medals over these next three days, and so that's really exciting and you know it's fun to be at the rowing venue and, you know, kind of a little trip down memory lane yeah, I think that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Well, we will all be cheering us rowing on along with you, and it's great to know that they are in a good place as they start out this push, these next few days. It sounds like an amazing experience. We're so grateful that you're sharing it with us, and can we invite you back to recap Paris once you get back home?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. I would bring some baguettes, but they'd probably get stale.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the thing, because they're so fresh that would happen, but we hope you enjoy. Thanks so much, chris, and we will talk to you again soon, ok thanks a lot.
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