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An Interview with Jennifer Tsyn, Hospitality and Tourism
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In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond's hospitality and tourism practice group co-chair Jennifer Tsyn. Jen discusses the growing hospitality industry in New York State and the nuances that are involved in liquor licensing.
Hospitality Industry Legal Practice Insights
Speaker 1Hello and welcome to Legally Bond , a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Schenick Kane . I'm your host , Kim Wolfe-Price . Today we're talking with Jennifer Sin , a business attorney and a member of the firm , who works out of Bond's Albany office . Jennifer advises a diversity of businesses on a variety of topics , but the one I hope we can spend our time on today involves the hospitality industry , including liquor licensing . Welcome to the podcast , Jen . Thanks for joining us . Thank you for having me . I mentioned in our intro that you advise business clients . Would you mind if today , after we kind of talk about that briefly , if we do focus on those hospitality related matters that you work on ?
Speaker 2Absolutely yes .
Speaker 1The hospitality stuff sometimes is the most fun stuff that I do , so I'd be happy to talk about it and I'm desperately in need of a vacation , so I really want to talk about hospitality . I always love like hearing more about that industry . I really find it very interesting .
Speaker 2Yeah , it is . It's great clients to work with and they have a lot of really interesting issues , so that's fantastic .
Speaker 1All right . Well , before we get into all of that and into sort of those legal practice topics , I like to start the podcast episodes learning a bit about our guests . I think that helps listeners sort of connect with our guests , learn a little bit more about the lawyers here , and it's a way for us to eat into our conversation . So would you please tell us a little bit about your background , and by that I mean whatever you'd like to share where you grew up , your undergrad , your law school , your family , whatever you'd like to share .
Speaker 2Yeah , happy to . So let's see , I am originally from New Jersey . I went to Drew University in New Jersey and my first semester away at college I met who's now my husband and that's how I ended up in Albany . He was two years ahead , he was a junior . He's actually from Ukraine , but he grew up in Albany . He moved to the US when he was three and he grew up in Albany . So he , when he graduated from college , came back to Albany to go to Albany Law School . So at that point I transferred to SUNY Albany and that is where I graduated from , and then he subsequently talked me into going to law school . So his third year was my first year of law school . So we had that one year of overlap .
Speaker 2So we have one daughter . She's 18 . She just started as a college freshman at Binghamton University and she's doing biochemistry , which we have no idea anything about . So she talks to me about it and sounds very interesting , but I don't really understand all of it . But she's very into it . So that's great . And let's see , and family wise I have . I have an older brother who was living in California . We have moved him to Albany . He had a brain injury , unfortunately , so he needed some care , moved him to Albany . He had a brain injury , unfortunately , so he needed some care . So he is now with us here in .
Speaker 3Albany . So that's it on the family side .
Speaker 2So yeah , undergrad was a psych major , went to law school and ended up at Bond . I was actually a summer associate here at Bond .
Speaker 1So I see I love this about the podcast . I didn't know you were a summer associate .
Speaker 2I was , yes , summer associate between my second and third year and never left , so I've been here all this time .
Speaker 1What kind of law does your husband practice ? He is ?
Speaker 2a workers' compensation law judge , so no overlap at all with anything I do .
Speaker 1Which is we like it that way , yeah , so I kept that overlap as far away as I could , for as long as I could , but I married the biochem person . So see your daughter in law school still a possibility . Do a little patent law . I love that . Well , I really appreciate that . And I Kate and I every time our producer Kate we talk about like how we learn a little bit , like I didn't remember that you were a summer law clerk or that you were from Jersey and that relocated you to New York's capital district . I love that . And you also participate in community activities with the firm , such as you've been an active ally in our Bond Pride group and you do volunteerism outside of the firm . You were doing some fun volunteering with your daughter , I think for a while .
Speaker 2Yes , and now that she's gone away to college I'm finding my new niche , so to speak . That's how I got involved in the Bond Pride group . My daughter was the president of her high school's GSA , is a member of that community and very interested in it and inspired me to become part of Bond Pride and walks with me , with me . So you know , now that she's gone off to college , I'm finding my new thing . You know I did a lot of work with her and her GSA . You know there's some really great organizations here in Albany . There's Capital Region Pride , they have events and things like that . So plenty of ways for me to keep involved .
Speaker 1That's great . Well , I really do appreciate it . I always think that that background is important for the listeners . Thanks so much for sharing all that . In the introduction I did say that you advise businesses as part of Bond's business law department . Would you give sort of a broad overview of your practice and the types of business clients you represent ?
Speaker 2Sure , yeah , absolutely . So I do a little bit of a lot of different things . I think a lot of my practice is just being a general legal advisor for all different kinds of businesses , sort of a soup to nuts issue spotter sort of thing . So you know I work with a lot of hospitality clients but I work with all different kinds of clients from all different industries . I've got manufacturing clients , financial services , consulting firms , I work with some higher ed medical , dental practices , sort of the gamut , but for all of them I do a lot of the things that all businesses deal with , no matter what industry they're in . So you know there's contracts to negotiate , no matter what industry leases , or you're buying a building , you have to be somewhere . So I work with them on those sorts of things .
Speaker 2Financing Most businesses at some point they're going to be borrowing from a bank or something . So work as borrower's counsel and help them through that , do a lot of transaction work . So bringing in an investor , bringing in a new partner , maybe selling to your children you're retiring those sorts of things . Maybe you're acquiring another small business and bringing them into the fold , maybe you've had a data privacy incident . So all of those sorts of concerns that really span across all different industries . Those are a lot of what I do with my clients .
Hospitality Industry Growth and Regulation
Speaker 1So , as a psych major , was this in the plan ever ?
Speaker 2You know it was when I started law school . My very favorite class was business organizations . People laugh . I thought that was fascinating .
Speaker 1I love contracts . You're not getting an argument here .
Speaker 2Right , I love my business organizations class . I actually became the research assistant for the professor who taught me business organizations . So I knew all along that I wanted to do business type work . A lot of my classmates . I'm going to do litigation , criminal law . I knew all along I want to be , I want to do on the business side .
Speaker 1So yeah , that's great , I love that Cause . Then during law school you got to sort of work on , you know , take some of those classes , focus a little bit , do that research assistant role helped you get some of that lingo , all right . Well , as I was preparing for our conversation , I was reading reports and a little data and information about how hospitality and tourism , how critical they are to New York State's economy right , it's a thing I might guess is true . But it seems from the reports that not only is that true , but it has had significant growth over the last several years , which sort of exceeded expectations . So will you give our listeners sort of an overview of what we mean ?
Speaker 2when we say hospitality and tourism . Right right , absolutely so . It's such a varied industry . It's not large to define but it's , I think of it , as it's all the fun stuff . So you know it's restaurants and bars , but it's also amusement parks and racetracks and the gaming . You know it's the alcohol industry , it's the wineries and the cideries this past weekend I was actually wine tasting out of Watkins Glen and it was also the NASCAR races at Watkins Glen this weekend and I think every place I walked in that entire state touched on this . It was restaurants , it was bars , it was wineries , it was the track , it was other businesses involved in the track , hotels , all involved in that hospitality industry .
Speaker 1Yeah , and such a diverse state as New York . Right , we have everything from New York City to Niagara Falls , to mountain ranges , at at least everything in between . There's so much , so much , yeah , well , so what are you seeing is sort of some growth areas within the industry , right .
Speaker 2So , yeah , I mean I've seen seen a lot of growth . I personally do a lot of the alcohol side , so I am seeing more hotels , new hotels . I'm seeing a big growth in the manufacturing side . So I am seeing more hotels , new hotels . I'm seeing a big growth in the manufacturing side . So we've got new wineries and cideries , breweries , distilleries , meaderies now , and also the ones that have been operating , for a lot of them seem to be expanding . I mean , I saw that even this weekend , you know , not just working with my clients on these sorts of expansions , but so you know they're building barns to have weddings and they're bringing in food trucks , they're having concerts and building a stage to have live music . They're turning there . It's not just about the wine anymore , it's about all these different things , so that it's it's a , it's a destination , it's a place to come . I went to one this way that where I was able to have flights of both cheese and ice cream . So you know , they're all fun .
Speaker 2I like both of those yeah Fans , the number of people they touch and the things that they can do when they go there . I think it's great , yeah .
Speaker 1And then when you talked . You know about the beer and wine and meaderies like those are areas that are highly regulated as well , aren't they ?
Speaker 2Yes , so much of the hospitality industry has a lot of regulation on it , like you know , make sense in that it's so regulated , consumer focused . The alcohol , I'd say , is probably maybe the most regulated , but all of them are . Gaming is obviously highly regulated . Hotels there's all sorts of permits you need when you're operating a hotel . People are saying they're saying they're with a restaurant or a bar , so it's very highly regulated . And I think the alcohol manufacturing is very , very highly regulated .
Speaker 1And tax must be a big part of this whole practice as well .
Speaker 2It is On the alcohol side . You've got the excise tax , but there's also sales tax issues and all so many different tax issues and how you structure the business and how it's shared , and all of those come to pass . Myself and some other bond folks are working with a client who's purchasing an farm alcohol manufacturing facility and I put together a list for them of all the permits they're going to need for all the different things they do there , and it was page after page . It just is . You know , there's the manufacturing side , there's the retail side , there's the overnight accommodations , there's the food service . There's just so many pieces and it's all highly regulated .
Speaker 1And then we said we'd talk a little about this side . But liquor sales are just a huge part of the income for a hospitality business , whether you're a hotel that does a small restaurant or you're a meadery , or to one of these farm destination event places which I think we're actually hosting something as the Buffalo and Rochester offices are getting together at one of these farm destination event places which I think we're actually hosting something as a the Buffalo and Rochester offices are getting together at one of these right , they're important parts now of business in our area , but it's a large part of their income , isn't it it ?
Speaker 2really is . It really is Something like a restaurant which obviously makes money from food sales . The alcohol piece is key to the financial health to a lot of these businesses and it's all the time that the delays are really , really putting a real strain because that alcohol piece is such a big part of the revenue stream .
Speaker 1Right , they've projected how much they're gonna make and that's a big piece of that revenue stream .
Speaker 2It is . It really is . It's definitely a concern to the folks in the industry . Get those licenses and then keep them standing .
Speaker 1Exactly so I guess that's something right . Like we talk about liquor licenses , We'll say , you know , as a person who doesn't do this type of work , right , I'll say like , oh , did they get their liquor license ? Or they don't have their liquor license yet . But will you please talk a little bit of like what does that mean ? What state agency is involved here ?
Speaker 2Yes , yeah , absolutely .
Alcohol Licensing in Hospitality Industry
Speaker 2So on the alcohol side the different types of licenses are treated a little different . So there's retail and then there's manufacturing and there's wholesale . But I do a lot of the retail side and the manufacturing side . So on the retail side you're dealing with just for alcohol purposes , the New York State Liquor Authority . So your retail side , that's your bars , your restaurants . You're not making alcohol , you're serving it , you're selling it at a liquor store , wine store , that's all the retail side . And you're dealing with the New York State Liquor Authority If you're going to actually be manufacturing . So your wineries , your cideries , your distilleries , you've got two pieces , two agencies to deal with on the alcohol side . So you're dealing with the New York State Liquor Authority because you need your state license . But you're also dealing with the federal TTB , the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau . So you have also have to get a license from them to manufacture and sell alcohol . So those folks have two layers that they have to deal with .
Speaker 1Yeah . And so as these businesses expand say you know , I was doing beer and now I'm going to be a meatery I must need to review and expand those licenses . Right , that has to change too .
Speaker 2Definitely . You know the Liquor Authority used to say I'm sure they do still say behind the scenes that when you get approval from them it's a snapshot in time . What they've approved is what you have told them that you are doing right now , and a lot of clients that I work with have their licenses already but are making changes .
Speaker 1Like , if I want to add a food truck or something else , that would be another reason . Right , absolutely .
Speaker 2Absolutely . And on the manufacturing side , if you're adding equipment , you're expanding , you're changing your space , that also has to go with the TTP . So , and at the New York state level , if you're want to serve on a patio and you didn't tell them you were doing that before , if you want to bring in food trucks , that's a different process , doing that before . If you want to bring in food trucks , that's a different process . All of that needs to go through the agencies and the New York State Liquor Authority in particular . A lot , a lot of those changes need to be approved and approved before you make the changes . You know I tell clients anything more than painting your walls and changing your carpet , anything more than that you're changing like , call me , call me before you do it and I'll tell you what we need to do , because there's a pretty good chance you're gonna have to tell the liquor authority what you're changing and what you want to do and we'll get you through it .
Speaker 2We'll help you through it , we'll . We'll get it approved . You know we'll get it taken care of , but much better to call me . Shoot me an email , ask me then to call me a year down the road that a , an has come in and asked why'd you change this ?
Speaker 1Yeah , like no , this isn't on your . We didn't know about this . Yeah , that's a problem , that's a big one . It's because it's focused on consumer safety right and protecting the public , and so they take that all very seriously , of course . So , picking either one , either New York or the federal , like what is the process , like how long can it take , or both if you want to talk .
Speaker 2Yeah , so it can take a very long time . You're looking at at least a few months , possibly longer , for a client who needs approval from both the TTB and the SLA . So it's like a manufacturing client . I tell them let's do it all at once , let's do these in parallel tracks , buy for everything TTB to get your approval from them . You're looking at several months at the liquor authority level .
Speaker 2If you are manufacturing , they won't do , they're not going to give you anything until you get your TTB . They might start working on your application and they're going to look at it , but they won't . You can get your TTTV before you have your state , but you can't get your state before you have your TTV , if that makes sense . So at the New York State Liquor Authority level most licenses now most you can get what's called a temporary permit and that is faster and that will allow you to start operating as long as there's no , you've met certain threshold requirements , start operating while they finish their review . It's still going to take you probably one month to three months at least to get that , to get your full license Once they've complete review .
Speaker 1You're looking at about a year in a lot of cases , depending on the type of license and how busy things are , but that's a long time .
Speaker 2So a lot of clients are relying on those temporaries and we just keep renewing them until they get it's their spot in line to get the full review .
Speaker 1And so it seems like you know noticing how the industry is changing . You know , sometimes maybe we'll use like beer they were brewing and bottling , but now they want to serve on premises . These are all different parts of this step as well , aren't they ?
Speaker 2They are . They are . So that's a big part of you know , when I have a client who wants to get into the industry , they want to apply . That first conversation . That's a lot of what we talk about like tell me exactly what you want to do , and then we'll figure out what you need . Like they may have done they've done their research and there's guides out there and they're like I don't know .
Speaker 2I don't know , do I need to apply for both a winery license and do I need an on-premises wait ? What can I do with which thing ? And and that's a lot more so sometimes they'll show me picture diagram . Ok , this is what it's going to look like , and over here I want to have food in a restaurant , and here I want to have my tasting room . And here here I want , this is where I'm going to model it . Oh , I'm going to sell it to a distributor . And then , once we've gone through all of that , then I can tell them OK , these are all the licenses you're going to need and this is all the things you have to start putting together so that we can apply for those .
Speaker 1That must be why it's so many pages , because there's a tasting room . You may need to have a certain amount of food that you serve with your tasting . And they have all these pieces and then it just builds on top of each other . Yes , yes , it's .
Speaker 2A big part of it is figuring out , yeah , what exactly do you want to do and how can we get you there ? Because there's going to be probably several different kinds of permits and licenses you need . We need to piece together to get you what you want to do . And part of it , too , is then figuring out , well , who applies , Because a lot of times you may you may have an entity that owns the real property and you have another one that's going to run the business , but maybe you've got , you know , a third party that's going to help manage it , figuring it , and there are rules about which of those have to be on the license , have to be named as applicants too . So that's always a big part of that first conversation . Tell me everybody who's involved here .
Speaker 1Nice . Well , because sometimes the restaurant is actually like run by someone else , possibly Exactly Yep .
Speaker 2Yep . So piecing those together is a big part of those first couple calls with the client looking to get into the industry .
Speaker 1The way this works , can sometimes some piece get its license and up and running first , so something can start . It's not all at once right , it starts in phases sometimes .
Speaker 2Sometimes , yes , yeah , sometimes we're able to do that so that you can start doing something . So we try , we try the best we can to get you know clients are , they're waiting and and they really want to get at least started . And it's a it's particularly if they're already paying rent . So that's what we talk about too , like , hey , have you signed your lease yet ? Let's , let's talk about if you can negotiate when that starts , if we can link it to at least some piece of this licensing . But , yeah , to the extent we can , we try to figure out what we can get the fastest and get that going .
Speaker 1Yeah , and so it's legal practice , but business advising , at the same time using the law and the steps to help them appropriately scale up .
Speaker 2Yes , exactly .
Speaker 1So this industry must be very I mean it's expanding . I feel like I can't drive anywhere without like wait , that's a distillery , so it's expanding and changing all the time . Is that what sort of makes it so much fun ?
Speaker 2It does , and every one of these businesses has something different every day . There's a new issue that pops up every day , so I love the sort of putting together a puzzle of it how to get them up and running and started . But then every day is something different . You know , six months down the road they may call me and my first thought is , oh , what went wrong ? But no , no , everything's got the license .
Speaker 2But you know , this vendor wants me to change our terms and we sign this new contract or dispute with my landlord . Or do I have to pay excise tax on this product If I'm not selling it to distribute what I'm doing this with it I'm usually tasting do I have to pay excise ? So it's always every day different issue that comes up , which is what makes it fun for me .
Speaker 1Yeah , I imagine it's really fun . So do you see the hospitality industry continuing to change over the next few years ?
Speaker 2I think so . I think it's going to keep growing . I think it's going to expanding . I think they're going to keep thinking of new things that I probably can't even think of right now New ways to make things fun for people . If my weekend trip was any easy , there are lots of people who want to do these things and are enjoying it and are going to these places , and I think the hospitality industry is really good about changing with the times and what do people want and really trying to keep up with that .
Speaker 1I think you're going to add these non-alcoholic breweries or your or the those lines and like , into everything that everyone's doing right .
Speaker 2Yes , absolutely , you know that's work with another client receive like well , we , we do beer , but what if we wanted to do like soda ? What if we wanted to do non-alcoholic ? And that's a whole different set of rules yes , whole different set of regulators a whole different set of regulations , which I felt terrible telling them .
Speaker 2You know , and as regulated as alcohol is , some of it is a little , just a tiny bit , ease , because alcohol kills some germs . So there's some things that you have to worry about . A non alcoholic manufacturing of beverages , right , you know it's . That's why it's a whole different set of rules and regulations and permits , because there's different concerns . Well , they're lucky they have you .
Speaker 1Yeah , well , thank you , jen . Thanks so much for joining us on the podcast to talk about the practice as this all evolves and develops . We hope you'll come back , because I do think that the other pieces the sodas , the non-alcoholic and all those are going to keep expanding . Yeah , absolutely , I love talking about hospitality . That's terrific . Well , thanks , and I love talking to you . So please come back again and thank you for the information . We really appreciate it . Thank you for having me . It was great .
Legal Podcast Information and Disclaimer
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