Legally Bond
Legally Bond
An Interview with Lindsay McKenna, Trust and Estate
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In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond trust and estate attorney Lindsay McKenna. Lindsay talks about how her willingness to be open to new experiences led her to the trust and estate practice area and discusses how important client relationships are within T&E, especially when navigating emotional situations.
Trust and Estates Law Overview
Speaker 1Hello and welcome to Legally Bond , a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Shettick King . I'm your host , kim Wolf-Price . On today's episode we're speaking with Lindsay McKenna , a member in Bond's Buffalo office . Lindsay practices in the areas of trust and estates law . Hey , lindsay , welcome to the podcast , hi .
Speaker 2Kim , how are you ? I'm good . How are you today ? I'm great .
Speaker 1Thank you . Thanks so much for joining us . Well , I hope today that we can talk about what we mean as lawyers when we say T&E , or trust and estates law , and also what it's like to practice in that area . Does that work for you ?
Speaker 2Sounds great .
Speaker 1All right , terrific . Before we get to that , it's a tradition on the podcast to ask our guests to talk a bit about their backgrounds so that the listeners can get to know a little bit about you . So can you just take a few minutes ? Whatever you'd like to share about your background whether it's law school , undergrad , family I'd really appreciate it .
Speaker 2Absolutely so . I am born and raised in Buffalo my husband laughs because I have lived essentially in the same quarter mile of where I grew up for my entire life . But for a couple of years , when I moved away for undergrad , I found my way back and did graduate from UB , both for undergraduate and for law school . So I am I am Buffalo through and through .
Speaker 1We must mention the Buffalo Bills . Then here , right , you have to say go Bills , you have to say go Bills .
Speaker 2Okay , I you know it not to go too far down that tangent , but I mean I went to the same high school as my . My parents and my kids are at the same elementary school with the same teachers that I had . I love that . We are well-rooted in the Buffalo community .
Speaker 2Having been from Buffalo , I have a lot of experience in various organizations in the area before , during undergraduate , through law school , working in various nonprofits . That kind of steered my interests as far as the work that I do now . Primarily I worked with individuals with autism in schools , which was very informative in the way that I think that I handle not only clients but of my own kids . So I went to UB Law School . As I mentioned , I also have a master's in social work . I never practiced social work . It was a joint program with the law school so I did it at the same time . So in four years instead of five , we had a joint year where I took classes in both programs , thinking that I was going to go into more of a social work role than private practice , but ended up finding the T&E world in private practice and never leaving .
Speaker 1I have to ask the social work degree . I didn't realize it was a dual degree program , but it must be helpful in T&E law because so much of this is about people in crisis or planning to avoid crisis in some way and we'll get into that more . But is it helpful ?
Speaker 2Absolutely , and frankly I think everybody could take a few courses in social worker , psychology , in all areas of law , but yes , it is absolutely helpful in the T&E world .
Speaker 1And so I think that you have a little bit different bond road or road to bond membership . So do you want to talk about that for a second ?
Speaker 2Sure . So right after law school , I started at a local Buffalo law firm called JCole Fleshman . We were well-rooted in the Buffalo community . They had been around for 100 years , I think I started there . We merged JCole Fleshman and Bond merged in 2016 . And shortly after our merger I left to go explore another T&E opportunity at another local firm and , after a couple of years , found my way home .
Speaker 1I like that Backed up on , so did you come back about ?
Speaker 2three years ago . Four I came back now , just about four years ago .
Speaker 1Okay , terrific . Well , we're very glad you did , of course , and we really appreciate you sharing that background , because I think it's a nice way for listeners to sort of get to know the human side of the lawyers , which is an important piece when you're working with people and entrusting them with something so important to you as the client . All right , so you have a dual degree JD and an MSW , so I guess maybe we should back up before I get into that . What is trust in estates law ?
Speaker 2Yeah , so trust in estates at its broadest level is helping people protect assets in some way and determine what will happen to those assets at their passing , and not only in the management , but who will receive them or what entity may receive them at their passing . It certainly gets a lot more specific than that , but generally it's talking about helping people to plan for the future .
Speaker 1Right and because , as much as we don't want to think about it , it is something that we all should think about . Yes , is that heavily like ? We talk a lot in practice there's administrative law , state law , federal law Is trust in the state's work . Is it primarily state law based ?
Speaker 2It is very state specific generally with respect to how assets can be , what we can do with them and how a will or a trust is prepared and what it has to say . But then we also have the federal rules . When it comes to taxation , we have the federal tax rules . Sometimes we're working with individuals who may be receiving government benefits , and those can be federal rules or state . But , yes , we are typically looking at New York rules with respect to preparing documents and then guiding us through the administration .
Speaker 1It seems like some of the clients . If we're dealing with individuals with perhaps higher net wealth , they can have a variety of states involved , properties in more than one location .
Speaker 2And that's why it is very helpful to us in Bond in being a larger firm and having a's . Why it is very helpful to us in Bond and being a larger firm and having a larger presence is we do have people admitted in different states so we're able to . For those folks that may have that touch different areas , different states , we still have the ability to assist . We generally , I think , in our T&E practice and at Bond , we have people not only in New York . We have people admitted in Massachusetts , new Jersey and Florida that I can think of , and we find that's a really good overlap , particularly the Florida piece of it , because so many clients are moving to Florida or have dual residences .
Speaker 1I was going to say you're sitting in Buffalo and I'm in Syracuse . We may be known for snow at certain times of year , and so that means a lot of people have that second home in Florida . Well , can you talk a little bit ? Can you explain to the listeners about what types of matters that a trusted estate's practice handles , particularly bonds , t&e practice ?
Speaker 2Yeah , so our practice at Bond really is a full service when it comes to trust in estates , and that means we can cover just about anything that an individual may need with respect to their assets , and that is a traditional estate planning . For people who you know , you may not need sophisticated tax planning , but you just want some guidance on what can I do with my assets and how am I going to get them to the next generation . Everybody should have a will , regardless of their size of their assets , and we can absolutely help with that . We also do sophisticated tax planning , kim . You mentioned that . We do a lot of work with very high net worth people and we have the capabilities of working with those folks and not only helping to plan how to move assets to the next generation , but how to do it in a tax efficient way . We do have a large focus on that .
Speaker 2We have a growing practice in estate litigation . Unfortunately , when people pass away , as much as we try to predict every scenario and avoid litigation , it happens A lot of times the litigation that we're seeing is coming in from family members who are impacted by somebody else's estate plan . So we're representing a beneficiary or potentially a disinherited individual , and we've been kind of growing that practice . From an estate litigation perspective , we also do trust in the state administration , meaning once somebody has passed away and we're actually administering their estates , we have a really great team of paralegals and a CPA and an enrolled agent who really help walk people through . They do the handholding with respect to the court process , the collection of the assets and the payment of the bills .
Speaker 2We do some guardianship work , meaning if somebody becomes incapacitated , how we protect their assets . In that way , if we need to get a guardian appointed if they didn't have other documents like a power of attorney or healthcare proxy in place , we can help get somebody into a place of authority to help protect those assets and make those decisions . And then we also do kind of on the other side of that . We do a lot of corporate fiduciary work and what that means is we're representing usually banks but some nonprofit entities that are serving as typically a trustee . So if somebody sets up a trustee they're during their life , read their death and they say you know , I have these really great individuals or family members that I want to be involved , but for whatever reason maybe the size of the assets or they just want somebody a little bit more sophisticated . They get a bank involved and we do a lot of help . We guide a lot of banks through that process as far as their obligations and serving in that role .
Speaker 1And you mentioned the broad reach that we have people admitted in other states but we're Buffalo , to the tip of Long Island with T&E lawyers as well .
Speaker 2That's right . We go all the way across the 90 and then down the Hudson and into Long Island , so there's not a person in New York that we can't help .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think , as we mentioned , people having maybe a second home , but sometimes in New York people have second homes here , right , they live in an apartment in the city and they have a home on the Finger Lakes or in the Adirondacks . So I think that's an important piece as well , that there's the overall knowledge , but then knowledge of all the different regions of the state as well .
Speaker 2And that's important right . It's important to have those relationships not only across the state but with the courts across the state , and I think having so many practitioners across the state has allowed us to develop relationships with the courts and other influential attorneys across the state to help us with various administrations as issues may come up .
Speaker 1Yeah , and it must be . I don't know if it's a relief or a source of confidence for someone who's worked so hard to set up family assets knowing that there's this team with so much experience helping sort of protect what they've worked their whole lives for .
Speaker 2I think absolutely . I mean that's one of the benefits to having so many practitioners at Bond is we have a great bench of people and we keep growing that bench .
Speaker 1I just met a new member of that bench in Albany earlier today via Zoom .
Speaker 2That's right . So we keep growing that bench and that way people know that when they come to Bond and we're helping with an estate plan , they can be here for a long time and their kids , you know , in 20 , 30 years they'll be able to call us up and somebody will probably still be here .
Speaker 1Yeah , exactly , we'll turn it over to you know , jane , or Matt , or Sam . Yeah , all right , so I have to ask this question In law school , when you were doing that , the dual degree ? Was trust in a state's law something , even when you entered law school , that you thought about ?
Speaker 2No , it was not . To be completely honest , I was not ever intending to enter into private practice at all . Well , law school was always kind of in the back of my mind . I did the mock trial in high school . I kind of fought it for a while . I never wanted to be somebody in private practice , I wanted to work in nonprofit agencies . I was going to go a social work route with law to help in that role and help . I kind of saw myself being more in administration for social work . So I , frankly I did not really . I focused on social work . I took a lot of those classes through the social work program and then in law school I really took you know kind of bar classes and I explored a lot of different
Finding Purpose in Trust Law
Speaker 2areas .
Speaker 2I didn't focus on anything in law school because I did have the social work piece also . So I actually did not take any . I did not take gratuitous transfers or any other trust and estates courses . I did take a couple of tax classes . Although I did not take a state tax , I took federal income tax , state and local tax and tax for exempt organizations . So it wasn't anything that ever tax never , never scared me . It was certainly something I was interested in . I liked the numbers of it , but using that in a T&E or a trust and estates area was not on my radar , frankly , at all . It wasn't until I was job searching my third year because I had interned at a local corporation , a food corporation , in their in-house department .
Speaker 2So also not related to trust and estates at all , but I was looking kind of for that variety . So when I was looking for a job my third year , there was an opening at JCO Fleshman not posted . I had made a connection with somebody that worked at JCO Fleshman and said , hey , I think you might want to try this out . And I met with the partners and they were like the one partner that I worked with primarily had had a counseling background , so she appreciated my social work experience . She said I think you might like this , I think it would be a good fit . And I was like , yeah , I'll try it out and if it doesn't work out , I'll try something else . Right , that's great .
Speaker 2And I never left it . I out , I'll try something else . Right , that's great . And I never left the . I never left it . I certainly I grew to to love it . I think it's a really good area for my skill set and it gives me an opportunity to kind of feel it . It fulfills me in that way where I feel like I'm still helping people in that way that I felt I needed to or wanted to when I was going through the social work program in a very meaningful way .
Speaker 1That's fantastic and I really appreciate your candor on that , because I think sometimes law students listen to the podcast and they think that like I don't know exactly what I want to do right now and they get very nervous about it . But it's a lot about being open . It's seeking advice and mentors and being open to trying new things , isn't it ?
Speaker 2I think that's right , and I have been very involved with the recruiting committee the last couple of years , and that's the one thing I try to take away from the interviews with the law students we're meeting . When we do a lot of our interviews , kim , as you know , we're meeting with law students that are just finishing their first years or just finishing their second years . The question always comes up well , what do you want to focus on , what do you want to do ? And I look back at myself and I always think I didn't know what I wanted to do . It's really not fair to try and pinpoint people into this , because our situations change and until you're exposed to an area in a meaningful way , you can't know that you'll want to do it .
Speaker 1Exactly , it's like you know . It's a good candidate if someone has good work , ethic , curiosity and a willingness to learn .
Speaker 2That's right . We not to go too far down that road , but we just we also just hired somebody and who's pretty , who's pretty green in the T and E world , but I , the one thing that really drew me to him , is exactly that Kim is , he wants to learn and he's interested and he's got that drive . And I said I can teach you the skills . That's right , but you've got the right attitude and that's what . What's really important from my perspective .
Speaker 1I agree , I agree . So for you , what keeps you interested in this work , now that this has been your career ?
Speaker 2Yeah . So I think , as I alluded to it , for me it's feeling like I can help people in a very meaningful and a very personal way . We don't get much more personal than tell me all of your assets and tell me all of your family problems so I can know if we're we need to make special accommodations for an individual . That's , that's incredibly personal and people really have to trust you in order to disclose that , and sometimes getting to that right at the first meeting is can be can feel a bit awkward . Hey , you know , meeting with you , you for the first time , Tell me why you want to disinherit this child . So being able to have those conversations and people allowing me into their life in that capacity has been , you know , sometimes I feel like I get more from those relationships than what I might be helping somebody with , and I think that's what keeps me interested in this area .
Speaker 1And you mentioned the tax classes .
Estate Planning Compassion and Flexibility
Speaker 1So it seems , from what you've said , your practice in T&E is everything from that estate planning when there are disputes or when it's distribution time to trusts . It's the whole gamut , isn't it ?
Speaker 2As I have learned and gained experience through my role as a trust and a safe practitioner . I've never wanted to turn an experience down . There's such a value in having at least I think there is a value in having that wide range of experience . Now , certainly , as I grow my practice , I have become more picky for lack of a better word about the type of work that I am doing . And I have that ability now because I work with such a great team that if there's something that I know is not my strong suit or somebody else's strong suit , we can pass that on , so I am able to focus a little bit more on other niche areas .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's great and that's what we tell students , right ? That that's the whole point . Start doing it all and then you can develop your practice , that what suits you . So you mentioned this , but the T&E practice you see a lot more into people's lives , their finances , their family discord . It seems like , besides obviously being incredibly smart , knowledgeable on the law , there's a sense of common compassion , that which we all should have , but that has to really come into play .
Speaker 2I think so , and although , kim , I mean you mentioned and that's exactly what I was thinking too is we're in a service industry . As attorneys , we all have to have that compassion for our clients , regardless of what area it is , because most of the time , people or companies are coming to us with a problem , regardless of what that problem is . But you're right with respect to trust and estates , because we are working with so many individuals , we're not working generally with the businesses , we're working with the business owners , or we're working with the executives or the employees who have a problem , and so it's always important that we you know for me , I don't lose sight of that that these are individuals and they could just as well be my grandmother or my neighbor , and so having that face with a name keeps things in perspective .
Speaker 1This can't be a nine . I mean , I don't think much is a nine to five practice , but this really can't be , because some clients you know things , life happens at different times .
Speaker 2Yes , absolutely . I mean there is certainly the need to be flexible . Right In the world of being an attorney , we need to always be flexible . We do have the benefit where we generally know our deadlines late at night , around a weekend . It can . Either it's generally not an emergency and it can wait until we all have time to address it , or it really is an emergency and that means somebody is probably not doing well or something traumatic really happened . Fortunately , in my career that has not happened all that often . It has happened and we have to certainly be ready to service our clients in that way , and not just because they're a client , but because they're a person who deserves that attention . But it fortunately has not come up regularly in my practice .
Speaker 1Yeah , but you're right , you have to just be prepared for it with , like with all different types of law , I guess , like things happen when they happen . You mentioned this , but I think it's important to point it out again . You know people hear estate planning , trusts , wills , and many people assume it's only for people with sort of extreme wealth , but that isn't true , is it ?
Speaker 2It's not true . We we do service a lot of people of high net worth . Everybody does need an estate plan , and the attention that those people need is the same whether you have a hundred thousand dollars or a hundred million dollars . You still need a plan . We still go through it with with a level of of detail , and we ask the same questions . It's just the ultimate plan and the goal might be a little different .
Speaker 1Right . I think that's just really important . It's like a lot of things in life people self-select out or think that's not for me , but it's an important part of what people have worked hard for ensuring that they're able to pass that on .
Speaker 2That's absolutely right In the way they want to right In the way they want to right . Otherwise , new York State will tell you how it's going to be distributed .
Speaker 1That is very right , and the only thing I know about that is from the bar exam a long time ago . Well , I have to ask this what advice would you give to a law student who's potentially looking into practice in the T&E trust and estates area ?
Speaker 2I would say give it a shot and give it time . The first little bit is not that glamorous and not that exciting . Right , you're sitting behind a computer and you're doing a lot of drafting . But it really does . If you stick it through and you give it time and you learn how valuable those relationships with individuals can be , it's really rewarding .
Speaker 1That's fantastic . I really appreciate that . I should say you know , I'm headed to a baseball game soon . Will I run into you again ? If it's a Yankee game , maybe , yes , it is so that's , we ran into each other in Baltimore , right , that's right . In Baltimore we went out to get our cars , but that's what . The other thing I love about Bond is that , like , we've all gotten to know each other , even though we don't sit in the same place , so it was great .
Speaker 2Yes , it was . It was a lot of fun and hopefully we'll get to another Yankee game soon .
Speaker 1Yes , exactly , all right . Well , thanks so much . Exactly , all right . Well , thanks so much . I think that was great advice and I really appreciate you putting all of the T&E practice into perspective for the listeners . So thanks , Lindsay , for joining us today . It's always great to get a chance to speak to you , and I hope you will join us again soon , maybe if there's something specific or a change in the law that you'd like to talk about .
Speaker 2Thank you , kim , thank you for having me .
Speaker 1Thank you for tuning into this
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