Legally Bond
Legally Bond
An Interview with Tina Foster, JustCause
In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim talks with Tina Foster, Executive Director of JustCause. JustCause provides legal assistance to low-income residents of Monroe County. Tina discusses the importance of pro bono work in bridging the access to justice gap and the need for civil legal assistance.
For more information on how to get involved with JustCause, click here.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Chetik King. I'm your host, Kim Wolf-Price. On today's episode we're talking with Tina Foster, Executive Director of Just Cause. Just Cause is located in Rochester, New York. It's a legal services provider with a mission to assist in closing the access to justice gap. The organization's mission is to improve the quality of life of low-income people in Monroe County, which is the Rochester area for those of you from elsewhere by ensuring the existence of a readily available panel of skilled volunteer attorneys to resolve serious civil legal problems. Welcome to the podcast, Tina. Thanks, Kim, it's great to see you. It's great to see you too, and thanks for I know how busy you are, so thanks for taking time to join us. Oh, of course, Great to be at Bond Well, and we're going to see you for a CLE.
Speaker 2:I hear your team soon too, so that's great, yeah, you guys are always doing great pro bono things, so we're happy for the partnership.
Speaker 1:Thank, yeah, you guys are always doing great pro bono things, so we're happy for the partnership. Thank you Well, I'm pleased you could join us. My thought for today is that we can talk about the work of Just Cause, of course, the importance of, and the real need for, pro bono in legal practice, and maybe delve a bit more into the types of matters that Just Cause handles. Does that work for you? Sounds great, thanks, all right, terrificific. So before we get started and we talk about pro bono and access to justice, it's a little bit of a tradition on the podcast to ask our guests to talk a bit about their background so that listeners know who's speaking. So would you mind talking a bit about your background, where you went to school, undergrad, family, whatever you'd like to?
Speaker 2:share where you went to school, undergrad, family, whatever you'd like to share, sure, kim. Well, I'm Tina Monchipour Foster. My middle name indicates where I was born. I was born in Iran and actually came to Rochester with my mother in the 70s when I was a small child and while she was here studying for her master's degree, the Iranian revolution happened and we were actually stuck in Rochester for some time period and it was during that time period that Rochester became a home to me and my mom and we got to know the great people here in Western New York.
Speaker 2:When I had a struggle like many immigrants have in this country, coming with not a lot of privilege and not a lot of resources and being here by herself, my mom worked a lot to try to overcome that and give me a great life. And when I was about 10 years old, my mom met my now father, john Foster, who adopted me. He was my stepfather and he was an attorney here in town, a second generation lawyer, and so I got introduced to the concept of the American legal system through my dad as a young adult well, I'll say preteen at that time, but he was a real driving force in my life to open my eyes to the power of the law and when I saw what the impact of having a law degree and having the knowledge and the confidence to be able to stand up for yourself and to advocate for others with that power, that is really what I think inspired me to go to law school to become an attorney and then continue on, ultimately into this work.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. Well, should we tell them that maybe we crossed over at a law firm at one point? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think my journey to the current place that I am at Just Cause and I'm very, very privileged to be one of few people who get to do the work that they love every day in their day job, but it was a circuitous journey. After I went to law school, I went to Cornell undergrad and when I graduated I sort of, I think, like many folks who come from humble backgrounds felt that it was important for me to excel to the highest place that I could, monetarily as well as prestige otherwise. And I worked really hard to try to get into one of the top law schools in the country and I wanted to prove that I could also work at one of the top firms in the country. And at the time, after I finished a clerkship at the Court of International Trade, I went to go work for Clifford Chance in the New York office.
Speaker 2:At the time, I think, kim, when you worked there, as well and we overlapped at Clifford Chance for maybe a year or two, I don't remember.
Speaker 1:I think it was a year or two, which is kind of fun when we find these Clifford Chance folks off in central and western New York. Right, there's a few of us scattered up this way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and it was there that I actually sort of got the pro bono bug to really expand out and came into that work. But I think, just to close out what I was saying before about I think, like many people trying to get to, you know, pay the loans off and get to the place where you feel like you've made it, I think is really part of the journey that I was on and because I did that I was also able to step away from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree and I have very similar thoughts on that journey and I will say we got to have a little bit of a reunion with Ignatius Grande when you received the Ruth Bader Ginsburg Beacon Award in January of this year from the New York State Bar Association and the Diversity, equity and Inclusion Committee, which was fantastic.
Speaker 2:Thank you. It was great to see old friends and familiar faces, people that have been doing great work for a long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it's well-deserved. So we were glad to be there to celebrate you and we really thank you for sharing that background. I think it's an important way for those maybe not in the law who listen to learn about lawyers and the many, many different paths that people take to get to where they are in their legal practices. So I really appreciate it. Thank you so okay. Well, I guess maybe we should start with the basics. I kept saying pro bono in the introduction and talking about just causing that, so do you want to talk a little bit about what we mean when we say that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. Sure, there are official definitions that we probably all know, and I'm going to say what does it mean to me? I'm going to interpret that question as what does it mean to me? And what does it mean to me? It means using the power and the privilege and the knowledge of where you sit, as a legal advocate whether you're an attorney, a legal assistant, an administrator, whoever you are in your sphere of influence you're using that knowledge for someone who doesn't have access and can't afford to have access to that knowledge and that expertise. So, to me, pro bono means using your power and privilege to help people who otherwise would not have that advantage.
Speaker 2:And, in the context of what we do at Just Cause, a lot of the work that we do is focused on obviously it's focused on civil legal services, and so it's trying to fill in the gaps where there are unmet needs in our legal system. That you know I think we all know that when you're accused of a crime in the United States, that you have a right to counsel and a right to an attorney, even if you can't afford one. Well, if you're facing an eviction, or you are facing deportation and immigration proceeding, or you are facing bankruptcy, loss of a child in a custody battle. There are many different places in which you need a lawyer, but if you can't afford one, you will not have a lawyer and you will be at a disadvantage.
Speaker 1:So pro bono to me is filling in those gaps, and that's what we do at Just Cause is try to connect legal volunteers of all kinds with those gaps or needs in the community organizations where all of the work is done by people on staff, but yours is a hybrid, where you have attorneys on staff and then you try to get all of us out on the streets here up to speed and able to help those of us, particularly with law licenses, of course, to help in these matters. So can you talk a little bit about that model at Just Cause?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're lean and small but mighty in terms of the number of attorneys that we have on staff. We only have six attorneys leading programs at Just Cause, but we have a panel of over 1,300 attorneys that are members of our pro bono panel, that have signed up to take cases with Just Cause, and probably each year maybe three to 500 of those folks are taking an active case, and so we use the power of the private bar to really leverage making sure that many more people have access to services, and so our attorneys focus on screening cases, making sure that the clients meet income guidelines, that their case is ready for placement, with an attorney flagging any issues and helping with preparing some piece of the case, and then we'll turn it over to one of our pro bono panel members to assist on the actual representation, usually at some stage in the proceedings, depending on what kind of case it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great and it's really an opportunity for folks either in the private bar or who are working in other organizations that are allowed to handle pro bono matters without starting from scratch. It's a tremendous you provide pro bono matters without starting from scratch. It's a tremendous. You provide, I think, a tremendous benefit to other lawyers by doing all of that hard initial work and having the you know the small but mighty depth of bench to help out as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I think that nobody wants to take on a case feeling like they're not competent to have all the knowledge and information at their tips, especially attorneys at Bond who are used to being experts in their field and they don't want to. You know they're not going to. Folks that are in practice and used to being experts are not going to want to take on a case in an area where they feel like they're less than experts, and so giving them access to an expert perspective allows people to practice in areas that they might not otherwise practice in, and so you know we.
Speaker 2:If you think about it, one of the reasons that I became a lawyer, and one of the reasons that being knowing lawyers and having access to lawyers is so important, is understanding the way the system works and even how. If you think in your life about how many times somebody a family member or a friend has called you because you're the lawyer, they know, not because you're a bankruptcy lawyer or you're a family law lawyer, but you're a lawyer. And do I need a lawyer in this situation? What kind of lawyer do I need? How do I get a lawyer? Is this the right price that the lawyer should charge me? What are my options. There's a lot of questions that people just have that we take for granted that we know the answers to, and that clients that can't afford services and don't necessarily have access to somebody in their family or their immediate circle don't underestimate the knowledge and the power that we all have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's terrific. You're right. And you're right, though, like attorneys may be experienced in one area, they may have experience in intellectual property or bankruptcy and then we're asking them to go to landlord-tenant court and they think I don't go to court. And that's where organizations like Just Cause are so important to get these people with different, these attorneys with different experiences, up to speed, providing that level of comfort and sort of pushing them to make sure that they're able to get things done. I love it. So you talked a little bit about Just Cause's mission, but I know it's also a name change. So do you want to talk a little bit about mission and the name change and how that all came to be?
Speaker 2:about the mission and the name change and how that all came to be. Sure, I think people have known our organization as Volunteer Legal Services Project of Monroe County since 1981. And there have been similar efforts in other parts of the state, in New York State, where there's been a volunteer legal services program in Syracuse and Buffalo and Albany and many parts of the state. And we did not change when we changed our name. We never changed our mission. We're still focused on the very same mission of helping the pro bono attorneys serve underserved communities.
Speaker 2:But why we changed the name is recognizing that the newer generation, younger generation that's coming out of law school, I think, has different motivations about how they do their volunteer work.
Speaker 2:And it used to be when you graduated from law school you just did pro bono work because that was the culture and expectation of every firm in Rochester, that you in our community, that everyone would do pro bono work.
Speaker 2:And now we see that people coming out of law school sometimes need to feel a connection to the work that they're doing beyond the fact that it's in there. It's the fact that they're a lawyer. They may decide to go and volunteer to work at an animal shelter or they may decide to go and volunteer and work at voter registration drives, and so what we are trying to do with the name change is to also demonstrate this is really a organization that is fighting for equity and fighting for access to justice and racial equity, and you know all of the things that seem unattainable, the big picture systems type of change. If you want to have your little piece of making a difference in the world, this is a way to do that, and so the name change really, I think, tried to convey that, in addition to being a, you know, an organization that uses lawyers to effectuate change and legal professionals, that the change that we are creating is important access to justice and equity work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's great. And I will say to anyone listening you know you could do all of it. You could do voter drives and pro bono work and work at a shelter if you want, but when you have a law, license right, this privilege that we have, you know we're the only ones who can do it Absolutely. So you mentioned the access to justice gap. Will you talk about that a little bit? Maybe that's not as familiar to some folks.
Speaker 2:Sure, I think called access to justice gap, the difference between the need and the supply of available legal assistance for people, and people who need assistance on a civil legal matter a serious civil legal matter how we define essentials of life, access to basic necessities like food, shelter, income, things like that those type of issues where people need assistance.
Speaker 2:There's only enough services available for approximately 20% of the individuals that need the services, and so the 80% of the people that need those services are not getting served, and so what Just Cause does is try to work to leverage a pro bono bar to fill in some of those needs, and it's you know. We're really relying on the private bar to be responsive to those needs because, unlike other places where they may have to hire 20 landlord-intended attorneys to cover courtroom if an emergent need comes out, we really need to rely on the private bar to step up, to take pro bono cases for things, because you don't hire 20 attorneys for a minute and then fire 20 attorneys a month later when the crisis is over or the need goes down. You need to be able to mobilize a private bar to be responsive. So I think there's also there's a matter of quantity of need, but there's also a matter of responding to needs that may be acute at certain times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seems like this model gives you the flexibility to sort of help ride the waves and serve clients, because the need in communities across our country for legal services for those who fall into that gap it's tremendous.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. This point in time is also a point of great anxiety. You know the transition in government whatever your feelings about the government, whoever is in power at a particular point causes, you know, anxiety for people about what that means for them and in their lives, and so there's a lot of people reaching out that want clarity and assistance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. You mentioned that you have a lean staff and I think you serve a large number of clients annually. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and about the staff at Just Cause?
Speaker 2:Sure, we have a great staff at Just Cause and bless that. We have some very, very dedicated people who have chosen to come and do this work for a lot less money than they probably could make other places, but they're there because they're very much driven by the mission of being able to wake up every day and do this work. Who works in our organization feels that it's a privilege and an honor to do that and also, frankly, a privilege and an honor not to just serve these clients but to work with the best lawyers in town and across the state, at Von Schoenig and other places where people step up and you know, I get to work with the best lawyers who want to give back, are trying to shape their communities into a future that is more just and better and can see those things. And so the great thing about the organization that I work at is I think it does bring together a lot of like-minded people who are working on issues that affect people in their communities, their neighbors.
Speaker 2:About the work that we do, we have many different programs. We serve, first of all, maybe the front line for a lot of people who are unrepresented, who are facing a civil legal matter and do not have an attorney and they're just proceeding pro se. So we have a help center at the Hall of Justice where we have volunteers. Come sit at a help center at the Hall of Justice, where it's you know we have volunteers. Come sit at a help center desk at the library provide legal information about how the court system, okay, works, who's a plaintiff and who is a defendant, and you know how. Where does my name go on this form? And not legal advice, but helping people to have legal information that they need about procedural information. That's at the state court, the Hall of Justice. We have similar programs at the federal court where we do federal court unrepresented litigants cases and represent them for limited scope appearances so lawyers can come in and just spend an hour giving somebody a consultation as opposed to having to take on an entire representation on a federal court matter. That could last a really, really long time and cause ongoing conflicts and things like that. So we try to use the information that we're seeing about where their needs are in those programs and others that we run to try to fill in gaps where we see there's a lot of need and one place that we see it that there's always, always consistently over time.
Speaker 2:Tons of need is family law. Family law there are. Most people are trying to get divorced on their own but can't because a divorce packet is unintelligible unless you have a law degree. So some of those folks are domestic violence victims and going through the worst time in their life trying to figure that out and have a spouse that's not going to cooperate, so that you need an advocate in those situations. We serve a huge number of people with domestic violence issues and that I would say across the state, every organization struggles to meet the need there. In addition, custody disputes. So family law is a big one.
Speaker 2:We have other areas immigration. That has been, there's been a huge need. We serve hundreds of immigrants every year that are either asylum seekers or an eviction crisis. There are I know Bon Shenek has programs there and I encourage anyone that even if you're not a litigator, you don't need to be Easy peasy, and just standing up next to somebody in court that they're not standing alone is, in and of itself, helpful and powerful to people. So as scared as you might be about going to eviction court as a transactional lawyer, you're not as scared as a person that's about to be evicted without you standing next to them. So keep that in mind and that's one that's overwhelming need.
Speaker 2:And then we have a whole bunch of consumer issues that are things that transactional lawyers should be excited to do if they don't want to do anything having to do with courtrooms and litigation.
Speaker 2:You know we have a very robust debt clinic that we run for people who can come in and have an attorney explain to them how they may be judgment proof and not need a bankruptcy because their assets are protected.
Speaker 2:We do a lot of clinics with people who are facing consumer credit issues that just need advice setting up businesses, llcs, contracts, just tort disputes where there's no money, not like plaintiff's work. But I had a dispute with somebody in my small business context and you know my food truck was vandalized and now I need to deal with that. So there's a lot of issues that don't require full scope representation, don't require litigation experience and, frankly, any experience at all. You have a name change program that helps people with transgender name changes to change your gender identification, and there's just a variety of different programs for whatever you're interested in. One of the newest ones that just started was we have a veterans program where we staff attorneys at the Veterans Outreach Center once a month, to you know, sit down with veterans and figure out what their needs are and just screen them for all sorts of legal issues. And then they don't have to necessarily have their will and their power of attorney and whatever else they need done at that moment, but they get connected with those resources.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think that that's such a wide variety of things but that so many of us sort of take for granted that we could have access to if we needed it right. It's things that affect everyday life.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and again, just having access to somebody that can tell you whether or not you need a lawyer and how to proceed on your own is important information.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I can't say the number of times that I've done this sort of talk to a lawyer and really the person just wanted someone to help them problem solve it. There's not a legal issue, but they needed to know that before they tried to go on and then where maybe they should go. It's really it's powerful and I'm not just saying this because we're talking, but it's powerful for the person doing it as well when you can walk away and you realize you've given someone an answer and you've really heard someone and they feel better as they walk away. It's powerful in both ways. So I'm just my pitch that everyone should go do pro bono Awesome. So you have to keep Just Cause running. So there's fundraising Please feel free to donate to Just Cause if you would like, to it's year end, so that's a good time. But there's fundraising, grant writing and all those different pieces. So how do you balance all of this?
Speaker 2:Tina, it's a pleasure, honestly, we have such great support and blessed that. You know we have support from all the major important firms in our area. Ed Horahan, a bunch in Rochester, has been the chair of our board for many, many years. Taria Jenkins, also in Rochester, is now on our board. Bon supports us in many ways financially, with services, donating attorneys, and that's really, I think what we rely on to keep us going is the support of. We really can't do anything without pro bono volunteers and without the support of firms. So we have a large number of small firm volunteers too, like solo practitioners, who don't even work at a firm. But so I think it's nice that you work at a place that supports pro bono and that can give you the resources and supports that you need. So take advantage of it, because a lot of people don't have those advantages. So why not take advantage?
Speaker 1:I agree. I'm going to take that clip and play it over and over here, so I think that you know we've been talking about it and it's critical to our profession and to our communities, our society. What would you say besides that, like maybe to a law student who's hesitant or people who are at all hesitant about getting involved?
Speaker 2:I would get in touch with your deepest, truest values about what is the change you want to see in the world.
Speaker 2:And if you want to live in a world where everyone has someone to talk to when they're facing that problem, that insurmountable bear, that problem, that's probably the worst day of their life. The time when people come see us is probably the worst day of their life. And to be able to provide some expertise to somebody on the worst day of their life and to be able to provide some expertise to somebody on the worst day of their life, it's profoundly, I think, for many of us, fulfilling in a way that's deep and goes to your core values, probably why you became whatever it is you became, and I think getting in touch with that, especially at times like this, when there's a lot of anxiety in the world and there's a lot of people who are feeling different things, it's a touch point doing that. Like you said, kim, you know you walk away. Okay, I don't. I don't know the answer to all the world's problems but, I, know for that person right there today.
Speaker 2:I made a difference and I think that's ultimately why people do pro bono work of any kind, any kind of volunteer work, and I could give you a lot of reasons other than that to do the work, like malpractice insurance and practice experience and kudos from judges and awards, but those are not the reasons. The real reason is it's life affirming work and it gets you in touch with why are we here on this planet at this moment as, as opposed to to the every day of like, let me just put one foot in front of the other, which I'm not saying, that's not a thing to do, cause I I have those days.
Speaker 3:There are those days.
Speaker 2:But you know, when you feel like you have a little something to give, giving it away feels good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would just go back to what you said earlier as well that you might be a little bit intimidated and you're used to being experienced, but whatever you're feeling is a lot less than the person in front of you or standing next to you who needs this help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and being willing to sit there with them. I mean, you might not know what's going on either, but you know what sitting there with them, not knowing what's going on, feels better. It definitely does. I mean, how many times have we sat in front of somebody on the other side of the table and maybe not known as much as we would have liked? But fake it till you make it, and I think it's helpful for the clients always.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and it's helpful then for our communities overall and the strengthening our profession as attorneys. So I think it's our duty to give back.
Speaker 2:And I just want to say thanks to your firm for all of the work that you do, and Kim in particular. You do great work in making sure that all the opportunities that are available and the great opportunities that your firm provides are well-known. And thanks for doing this podcast, because I think that there's not a lot of spaces like this where people can take a minute and think about these things. So I really greatly appreciate that and I love Batchenic and King and I hope that you'll consider having us back some other time.
Speaker 1:Of course we will. Of course we will. We're always excited to work with you. We're excited to do the continuing legal ed for our lawyers coming up soon and to have our attorneys and our staff support cases and individuals through Just Cause. So thank you so much, tina, for joining us on the podcast, for the amazing work you do at Just Cause and your whole team for our community, and I hope you really will come back and join us on the podcast again soon.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Kim.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legallybond at bskcom. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded.
Speaker 3:Until our next talk be well, has prepared this communication to present only general information. This is not intended as legal advice, nor should you consider it as such. You should not act or decline to act based upon the contents. While we try to make sure that the information is complete and accurate, laws can change quickly. You should always formally engage a lawyer of your choosing before taking actions which have legal consequences. For information about our communication, firm practice areas and attorneys, visit our website bskcom. This is Attorney Advertising.