Legally Bond
Legally Bond
An Interview with Suzanne Messer, Litigation
In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond litigation attorney Suzanne Messer. Suzanne discusses how she "grew up" at Bond, what it means to be a higher education litigator and her experience with class action lawsuits in state and federal courts.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Schenck King. I'm your host, kim Wolfe-Price. In this episode we're speaking with Suzanne Messer, a member of the firm who sits in Bond's Syracuse office. Suzanne is a litigator and part of the firm's higher education practice group. Welcome back to the podcast, suzanne. Thanks, kim, glad to be here. It's always good.
Speaker 1:Thanks for taking the time, and I suppose I should tell people, as we record this, we're actually looking at each other through a wall, maybe because we sit on the opposite sides of the same wall. That's right. That's right, you're right over there. Exactly, I love that. All right. So I say welcome back, because you have been on the podcast before talking about some of your leadership roles at the firm. But, if it's okay, today I'd really like to focus on your litigation work and really spend time focusing on how you represent colleges and universities in the higher education group. Does that sound like a plan? I'd love to do that. Yes, terrific. Well, before we get too far into our conversation, it's kind of a tradition on the podcast we start by spending a few moments talking about your backgrounds, where our listeners can get to know you a little bit. So up to you. You can talk about where you grew up, undergrad, law school, your family, whatever you'd like to talk about.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I am born and raised here in the Syracuse area. I grew up in Liverpool. I was a warrior as a high school student and I was never coming back after high school. Right, I said I was going to move away to a big university somewhere and never coming back to Syracuse. But of course that's laid plans. I did go away to the University of Scranton in Pennsylvania, a wonderful Jesuit institution, for undergrad and I had some great experiences there. I worked at Walt Disney World for a summer. I worked at Goldman Sachs for a summer, so I had some great experiences.
Speaker 2:But ended my undergrad career kind of without knowing what I wanted to do next. So, between my legs, I came back to Syracuse, moved back in with mom and dad, who still live in Liverpool, and just got a couple of jobs working in an office and waitressing to pay off the credit card debt I accumulated in college. I met my now husband, which sort of solidified the fact that I was never leaving Syracuse, and with his help kind of decided that I wanted to try law school. I don't have family members that are lawyers or a big network of people that practice law, so it was sort of just. I think I'd like to do this type of thing, took the LSATs only applied to SU. The College of Law there got accepted and it really was the best thing that could have happened to me, because I think I've kind of found my identity, sort of in being a lawyer.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic and I love that. You knew it was Syracuse Law and I know that you did well there. You had a great career as a law student, so can you tell us a little bit about how you then got to bond?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. So I got to bond through the on-campus interview program that they have up at the Syracuse University College of Law and I can see it from my window actually. But that was, and I think still is, the primary way that a lot of law students find out where they're going to end up. So I was fortunate enough to be hired as a summer associate at Bond after my second year of law school and it just was such a great experience. It was a wonderful experience. I made some great friendships, even just during my summer. I loved taking advantage of the rotation program that Bond had and still has, which requires the summer law clerks to sort of move around to each department, and in doing that I got to know not only the types of work that Bond does, but I got to know everybody who worked in the Syracuse office. I felt very at home here, and so I knew Bond was where I wanted to come.
Speaker 2:If I was fortunate enough to get a job offer after my third year and I was I remember receiving the call from John Callahan, who's a retired partner now. He was chairing the recruiting committee and he said we'd be so pleased if you'd join us, and I just remember saying yes, I remember shouting yes, and he laughed at me and he said don't you even want to know what you're going to get paid? And I said, oh, yes, I should ask that question, of course, but I was just so happy to know that Bond wanted me to be part of its future as much as I wanted to be part of the future that it was an immediate yes. And now I tell people I grew up with Bond, shennck and King. Well, I think that's pretty accurate.
Speaker 1:That's great. I love any story that talks. You know, somehow Callahan comes up as part of it.
Speaker 2:I have many.
Speaker 1:So when I introduced you, I said you're a litigator, so for our listeners what does that mean? Are you running to court every day?
Speaker 2:Oh boy, the definition of what a litigator does honestly changes on a daily basis. I am not running to court every day, I am running to court frequently, yeah. So I'm sure everybody listening to the podcast knows that litigation is not well understood. People know what it means to be a trial lawyer, right, because they've seen it on TV. So when I'm talking to people outside of my profession and they ask what kind of law I practice, I tell them I'm a trial lawyer. I'm sure they immediately think that I'm creating the drama scenes and the various TV dramas, and that's not at all what I do.
Speaker 2:But litigation really starts from the day your client knows that they have a claim against somebody else, or if there has been a claim asserted against them and that claim can be defamation, trip and fall, breach of contract. I mean, the possibilities are endless in civil litigation. And so from day one as a litigator, you're looking at that claim and you're thinking what do I need to prove my case? Or, if you're on the defense side, which we often are, what do I need to defend my client in this case? So litigation is not just going to trial.
Speaker 2:Litigation starts years before you ever end up at trial, as you know, kim, because you used to litigate as well before you took over this job as chief of all things at Bond Shen and Kinke. So you start strategizing from day one as soon as you have your first interview with somebody that works for your client's company and you are trying to understand what happened. How did it happen? What documents are out there that I'm really going to need to look at to analyze this claim? And, frankly, what the law is almost comes in secondhand. Then you kind of have an idea of, okay, what law do I really need to make sure I understand in order to make sure that I have everything I need to defend this case. And so litigation spans from that first interview all the way to the end of trial, whether that be a jury verdict, an appeal, a bench decision, if it's a bench trial. So the litigation of one matter can span many years and it encompasses a variety of procedural steps along the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so much. And you mentioned, you know, trial lawyer, and that can mean different things to us as lawyers than when we talk about a corporate firm like this. What makes a litigator in a corporate firm like us a little bit different? Is it the types of clients that we represent for the matters you handle?
Speaker 2:Civil litigation is not that exciting to most people. Nobody goes to jail. It's not that juicy, you know. It is businesses, typically businesses fighting against businesses, and so the outcome of that case is money, right, who's going to pay who money, you know. As opposed to the criminal cases where you see somebody go to jail or somebody found guilty. We don't find anybody guilty in civil cases. So not as exciting from an outsider's point of view, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:But yes, so the clients are different. We represent corporations now, or companies, right. So corporations, you think of big, big companies, but a lot of our clients are what we call limited liability companies, typically smaller, right, or DBAs. It's one person who's trying to make their way in business and gets in a dispute with another person who's trying to make their way in their business, right, so the clients are different. I also do a lot of work for higher ed institutions, which I kind of see as a whole universe in and of themselves because of the variety of issues that they deal with, because of their operations. Deal with because of their operations. And so, yeah, it's the difference in claims, we don't generally do criminal law here at Bond. We don't do family law here at Bond divorces, child custody, things like that we don't do, but we do everything else. So differences in claims, differences in clients, I think, than what you see on TV generally.
Speaker 1:So did you know you wanted to be a litigator in law school, or was it part of the summer program?
Speaker 2:Neither of the above, you were chosen. Well, no, I did choose. Bom does really great about making sure you go where you have an interest, as you know, kim, but after my summer, I did not think I was going to go to the litigation department. I didn't know where I was going to go. I had a couple of didn't know where I was going to go. I had a couple of other things that sparked my interest, but litigation was actually my last choice, and so then, when I came back after I graduated from law school and did the longer rotation at Bond, I just had the opportunity to get involved in some different litigation matters during that time period and work with litigators I had not worked with when I was here as a summer, and it just changed everything. And I do think I came to the litigation department primarily because of the relationships I built during that rotation after law school, and those are the people that drew me to the department, who have been my mentors and some of whom are my best friends today. I love.
Speaker 1:That. That's terrific. Well, and I should say that, like briefly, back in my higher ed life, I think you were my lawyer for a little bit.
Speaker 2:Right, I remember that meeting. I remember that meeting. It was great.
Speaker 1:It was great, it was really fun. So you did nothing wrong, by the way, that's right. And there was never an action actually filed. So I think it's because they knew I was there I do too. They ran away, we were on that call and they're like okay, we're out. So let's talk a little bit about prior ed then in that practice, if you don't mind. So higher education is for colleges and universities and you're right, it's its own universe. So what types of matters can you handle there? What's your practice like in that sector?
Speaker 2:Everything. So, yes, I mean you know. If you ask a college or university what their mission is, their mission is to educate their students, but they operate as landlords, they have financial issues, they enter into contracts, people slip and fall on their campuses, their employees get in car accidents, people are terminated from their jobs, there's faculty members who have tenure or don't get tenure and issues arise there. Students are disciplined in a variety of fashions and so it runs the gamut, because you are looking at the college or university from so many different angles, because they serve so many different roles for their students and their employees. So the majority of my practice when I started out in higher ed was what I affectionately refer to as reverse Title IX cases, and those typically involve a student who has been disciplined for violating the university or the college's sexual misconduct policy. All institutions have procedures if somebody is accused of violating that type of policy and they have an internal procedure, and then if discipline is imposed, oftentimes it has a significant impact on the student who is disciplined as well as the student who was believed to be the victim. And so when students have been suspended, expelled and are looking at having spent a lot of money on their education and not being able to complete their education. Oftentimes there's a lawsuit that arises from that against the school for how the school handled the internal proceeding. So when I first delved into higher ed, that was pretty much what I did was I defended institutions against those claims, and I still do a lot of that.
Speaker 2:But I love higher ed. I love the people I work with in higher ed, I love the variety of cases that I see in higher ed, so I've expanded my practice to representing colleges and universities and essentially any kind of litigation that they may encounter. So the variety is great and I just love the higher ed. I'll just call it a bubble. It's a special place to be. Every institution is different and they all have their own cultures and priorities and I'm just fascinated by getting to know how they each work and how my advice and my representation of them needs to change to accommodate or to yeah, I guess accommodate is the best word to accommodate their culture and what their ultimate goals are, and so I've just found that to be incredibly fulfilling and I enjoy it.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic and, as you were talking, there are those cases where maybe one student and how they were impacted, but I know you also defend class actions, so it's pretty huge this difference of types of cases.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, my beloved friends in higher ed.
Speaker 2:They are just really facing a lot of changes right now, and COVID presented so many challenges and a lot of litigation arose out of that, including many class actions that I am still handling five years later because litigation takes a long time.
Speaker 2:So COVID really shook up the world of higher ed. They all had to transition to remote instruction because New York and pretty much every other state in the country was shut down. They could not hold in-person classes without violating the executive orders of the various states, and so some students have said that what they received after the transition to remote instruction just wasn't the educational experience they signed up for, and that raises a whole host of legal issues that we're working through. But those are class actions, meaning that one student brought an action on behalf of everybody else that they were going to school with at the time, so the scope of that is just necessarily larger. So, yeah, that that's happening in higher ed, and I also do class action work outside of higher ed as well. So a lot of the skills and knowledge that I learned span both my practice inside higher ed and for my non-college and university clients.
Speaker 1:And that's a lot. That's federal court, right, and there's some differences in that type of work as well. But that lets you sort of keep in that federal court world when you're dealing with those class actions.
Speaker 2:So some of them are, and actually some of them have now migrated to state court. So, yes, when they when those class actions the COVID class actions, we'll call them when they started they were all in federal court and since then some cases have started to be brought in state court. And so I would say I probably have more of the remaining class actions in state court right now than I do in federal court, which is a complete flip from from a few years ago. My other class action cases are are do in federal court, which is a complete flip from a few years ago. My other class action cases are all in federal court. So, yeah, class actions in both state court and federal court, and whether I'm in state court more or federal court more changes with the wind, I don't know, or the weather, whatever you want to say For sure.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think, another important piece about this higher ed practice, particularly at Vaugh right. The firm has a large higher education practice, but it crosses many different areas of law, from labor law to business and transactional data privacy and, of course, litigation. So are these higher education institutions? Bond represents these colleges and universities located throughout New York and really beyond.
Speaker 2:They are, and thank goodness for my wonderful colleagues at Bond because I can litigate a case which lets me learn what I need to know for that case know the more general employment issues, tenure issues, cybersecurity issues, tax issues, all of these things that arise, accessibility issues, accommodation issues all of these things arise for higher ed institutions that I know enough about to be dangerous. But I have somebody I can call who's part of our higher ed practice group, who knows the material that or the subject matter that's needed inside and out, and that is just such a wonderful service that we can offer to our higher ed clients. People I work with directly will call and say we know this is in your area, but you must have somebody who knows, and 99.9% of the time we do, and I can connect them and we can get them the help that they need. So yeah, new York State, obviously we're all. I'm a New York State barge attorney and I primarily work with institutions in New York State, but I know that there are some of my colleagues who aid in non-litigation matters for institutions far and wide.
Speaker 2:We're also very active in a variety of associations, including NACUA, which is the National Association of College and University Attorneys, and that is a collaboration of attorneys who are either in-house or outside attorneys representing colleges and universities throughout the entire country and in fact, beyond, and NACUA is just one of many associations that we're active in. So we not, and it's such a collegial space. I know that we consult frequently with attorneys at other colleges and universities and at other firms who represent colleges and universities, just to kind of collaborate and say how are you guys handling this, what do you think about this executive order, what does this mean? And, as you know, recently things have just been coming fast and furious. So, you know, not only do do we work together within bond, but we have great relationships outside of bond that help us service our clients also.
Speaker 1:And it's so interesting. I mean to know all of the different things that you can do in representing and of course if it's a federal matter you can wave into that as a New York state. So if it's a federal matter it doesn't really matter particularly what state they're in. You can get pro hoc dice or admitted for limited scope. Is that a summary of pro hoc?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. So being a federal court admitted attorney if there is a case pending for one of my clients in a federal court in Maryland, for example, then I can go down and find somebody we know in Maryland and say, hey, can you help me get admitted, just for this case, and there are procedures that you can do to follow that. I still rely heavily on my local counsel for that type of work because, even though it is federal court and the rules are the same, there's always something about knowing how particular judges like things and how will a jury in this area react to something, and being able to bounce stuff off of the local attorneys who are ingrained in that legal community local attorneys who are ingrained in that legal community. So we also, as bond, serve in that capacity as litigators in the Syracuse, albany, rochester areas as well. So it's really great to be able to kind of expand your network of colleagues by doing work such as that, where you are pro-Hockton and you work closely with somebody who works in a different community than you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It just gives you their perspective and you learn the ways that practice is handled in those areas. The other thing about colleges and universities I mean some colleges and universities there are 400 students in a class and others there are thousands, tens of thousands. So the size of these different clients also must make it incredibly interesting, because then their missions are different and their cultures, like you mentioned before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the missions, the cultures, frankly, the financial abilities of the clients to really be able to litigate a case through or settle a particular case. For some of our smaller institutions and there's a lot of those in New York settling a case for a six-figure amount or seven-figure amount, it's just frankly, not feasible and that changes the strategy of how you litigate the case for them and how you attempt to resolve the case for them. So that all goes into part of understanding how each of my college or university clients are different, whether it be from a financial perspective, a size perspective, a mission perspective or a culture perspective and you mentioned a little bit.
Speaker 1:You know that some of your class action work isn't higher ed. So, and I mentioned, your litigation practice covers other sectors. So is that part of what makes litigation interesting or terrifying? I guess you could classify it either way, I think interestingly terrifying.
Speaker 2:Yes, so, for example, class action is a great example, right? So there's rules that apply to how you litigate a class action. Okay, in terms of when you bring on motion for class certification, what you have to argue for or against class certification.
Speaker 1:I'm having a bar exam moment going through that.
Speaker 2:Some of that translates, regardless of what the subject matter is right. So having tried class actions in one context at least partly qualifies you to be able to do a class action in another context. But then you have to add in the subject matter, right. So I have class actions that arise out of employee benefits claims arising out of the federal law ERISA. I have wage and hour claims that arise out of the FLSA federal statute or the New York labor law, you know. And those are just a couple of examples of class actions that you have. So you know you're kind of partially qualified going in because you either know the subject matter or you know the rules about class actions, but actually never both. So that's again where it's a great place to work here at Bond, because somebody knows the subject matter and they can help us make sure that we're learning what we need to learn about the subject matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, it's what do we call it here A deep bench, deep bench.
Speaker 2:It's maybe a cliche, but it is a thousand percent true.
Speaker 1:I agree. The other part about litigation and we've talked about it a little bit is there are different venues, right, there's federal court, there's state court and there's mediation. Do you work?
Speaker 2:in all of those areas I do, I do. I joke that you know I don't even know where state court is sometimes because for a long time I again it goes in waves. My I would say the bulk of my practice has been throughout my career in federal court. Federal court has rules and I'm a rule follower. I like to know what they are. Has rules and I'm a rule follower. I like to know what they are?
Speaker 2:I like to know what they're exactly. But state court, wild West, a lot more loosey goosey in terms of the rules and if you really have to follow certain rules and how judges are going to enforce those rules. So yes, I practice in state court, I practice in federal court and mediation really runs the gamut. Sometimes you do mediation when there's not even litigation pending, because you're trying to avoid litigation, and other times you do mediation because the court requires it. So a lot of mediation because, as everybody knows, litigation is very expensive. So if there's a way to cut to the chase and resolve a case for a client and that really is in the client's best interest, we'll push for that. Other times it doesn't work and you have to litigate a little bit down the line before you're able to really visit that mediation possibility.
Speaker 1:I think what litigators love is getting a new set of problems, a new set of facts and having to dig in and figure out what the path forward is.
Speaker 2:I think so. At the outset sometimes it's anxiety-inducing thinking oh my gosh, I'm not really sure about if I know how to do this, but when you sit down and you use your skills, that translate regardless of the subject matter, the client, the type of case when you sit down and you know what you have to do and you do dig in and I find it fascinating to learn a new area of law or to refresh my memory on an area of law that I haven't worked on in a while. That's where I really feel like I belong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and because you have those rules of civil procedure or New York practice. Those are part of your skill set, your toolbox, and then you just take those and apply them to what you have in front of you and make a plan.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, all right. So what advice would you give a law student interested in litigation?
Speaker 2:Are we having a good day or a bad day? I'm just kidding. If you think you're interested in it, try it out. I've had so many really great budding lawyers tell me I just don't think I could do the court thing. But I think you'd be surprised, right? If you get involved in a case and you do the dig in that we're talking about, you learn it and you really do come up with your narrative for your client as to what happened in this situation and why your client should win or is not responsible for what somebody else is accusing them for. You get into it. It kind of ignites a passion in you. And so for people to say, when they say to me, I don't think I could do the court thing, I bet you can. I bet you can because you're going to dig into it and you're going to start to feel passionate about it. So try it out.
Speaker 2:Also, it's scary when you start out, and it's even scary for me, even as old as I am today, because you're human beings, right, so you're going to make mistakes, you're going to miss things. It's just life. I have found that everything is fixable, everything is figureoutable, and when you work at a place, particularly like Bond, there are so many people who have had more experience than you as a young lawyer. They're going to be there to help you figure out how to unravel whatever has happened. Most of the time it's probably not as bad as you think it is, but there's so much support.
Speaker 2:So that's what I would encourage law students who are looking for where they want to go next. Look for a place where the people kind of give you the feeling that they're going to be there to mentor you, to help you through issues that are just going to arise, because they do. We're going to be there to laugh with you, to congratulate you when you win, to boost you up when you don't win, because that's going to happen too, and it's really more for me about the people than anything else. So I think if you're a law student looking for where you might want to start out your practice, look at the people, see how you feel about them. Is that a place you're going to want to? You're going to feel comfortable walking into somebody's office when you're having a difficult situation and saying I really don't know what to do next. That's the place you want to go, and that's definitely what I found here at Bond.
Speaker 1:Well, I will say, you know, because I get to work with you is why I was so glad to join Bond the Theory. A few years ago I got to work with one of my friends. I mean, how lucky am I? That's great, Listen.
Speaker 2:I agree, this is a tough job. It's a tough job, that's just, that's just it. It's stressful at times. You know, my job is literally to fight with other people and I don't know, I have an almost 11 and an almost 14 year old, so I fight at work, I fight at home. It's a lot and you get tired and there are times where you just need somebody to sort of make you feel better. And unless you're working with people who you're comfortable, kind of saying man, this is not going well, it's tough. So having that support system and those great people to work with is really important.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. Well, thank you, suzanne. Thanks for joining us and taking the time. You and I talk about so many topics in a given week. We could have kept this going as a marathon, so you'll have to come back again and talk about other topics. What do you think?
Speaker 2:I'd love to Kim.
Speaker 1:Terrific. Thank you so much. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legallybondbskcom. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well.
Speaker 3:Bond, schoeneck and King has prepared this communication to present only general information. This is not intended as legal advice, nor should you consider it as such. You should not act or decline to act based upon the contents. While we try to make sure that the information is complete and accurate, laws can change quickly. You should always formally engage a lawyer of your choosing before taking actions which have legal consequences. For information about our communication, firm practice areas and attorneys, visit our website bskcom. This is Attorney Advertising.