Legally Bond
Legally Bond
An Interview with Christopher Phillips, Trust & Estate
In this Pride Month episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Bond trust and estate attorney Christopher Phillips. Chris shares insights on advance planning, the issues that arise when legal protections aren’t in place, and unique considerations for LGBTQ+ individuals seeking to protect their assets and preserve their legacy.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond, shennick and King. I'm your host, kim Wolf-Price. On today's episode we're speaking with Chris Phillips. Chris is an attorney in Bond's Buffalo office practicing in the area of trusts and estates. Hey, chris, welcome to the podcast. We're so excited for you to join us.
Speaker 2:Hi Kim, thank you so much, happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Terrific, all right. Well, so today I, of course, would like to talk to you about your trust and estates practice, and we can talk about what we actually mean when we say trust and estates law, including what it's like to practice in the area. Then, if it's okay with you, as we are going to air this episode in June, which is pride month, I'd like to talk a bit about teeny issues, with a focus on LGBTQ plus communities. Does that work for you?
Speaker 2:That sounds perfect.
Speaker 1:Perfect. Thank you so much. And I'm going to confess, Christ gets best guest ever because he sent me some topics. So there we go. It was already won an award and we're two minutes in, so thank you All right. So before we get to that, it's a tradition here on Legally Bond and we ask our guests if they talk a little bit about their background so that our listeners can get to know who is speaking. So would you mind taking a few minutes so we can learn about your background and you can talk about whatever you'd like law, school, undergrad, family whatever you'd like to share, sure, thanks so much.
Speaker 2:So I'm a Buffalo boy, born and bred, grew up in Western New York and have a really large and supportive extended family. So my parents grew up on the same street, my dad's one of 10 and I have 23 first cousins on his side. So yeah, busy, busy upbringing and family has always just really been an important part of my life. And you know, I was sort of trying to figure out where my career was headed and I always knew I wanted to be in the area surrounded by my family. So I went to undergraduate here at a local college called Canisius, and then law school at University of Buffalo. My mom always laughs that she knew I would go to law school because for my seventh birthday I asked for a briefcase and I got that.
Speaker 2:So I think it was written in the stars for many years that I would go into this field. Right out of law school I joined a group called the Center for Elder Law and Justice, a legal services agency serving older adults, and so I was doing a lot of guardianship work there and some simple estate planning, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a bit here. But then, you know, an opportunity presented itself to work here at Bond in our trust and estates group. One of my colleagues had been working here and spoke very highly, and I was ready for a new challenge and very happy to be here now.
Speaker 1:Well, we're very happy that you're here with us. That's terrific and thank you for sharing. That's such a good Buffalo story, like the same street that many first cousins. If you had mentioned the bills, I think you would have hit all of the Buffalo topics or told me, like, where your favorite wings are from. I don't know those, but I love it. Buffalo is a great town and you'd love to see people staying to you know, help it move to the next level in the future, so that's great. Thank you. You mentioned your work from before you came to Bond so you didn't summer with us and that you've transitioned over, and that was also Trust and Estates, but a little bit different. You want to talk just a little bit about the work that you did there.
Speaker 2:Sure. So it was really a legal services agency serving older adults and a host of civil legal services really anywhere from housing issues to healthcare issues, and we were serving as a court appointed guardian for about 80 to 100 incapacitated individuals at any given time. That's a lot, yeah. So we were making all of their medical and financial decisions. We would step into their shoes, essentially, and become their decision maker. So I would see every day, you know, these individuals who didn't have a decision maker appointed, who perhaps did, but were taken advantage of by that decision maker, really trying to unpack all of these aging and law issues, and really it could range from anywhere, from health insurance issues and bringing cases to fair hearings, filing civil actions to recover money, selling houses and actually mowing someone's lawn when I couldn't get a lawnmower out there, right, so full service.
Speaker 1:A true lawyer, do whatever it takes.
Speaker 2:Exactly that's what we do the helping profession Right Try to make it work and help our clients in any way possible. Helping profession right Try to make it work and help our clients in any way possible. Really right out of law school, though I graduated in the year 2020. So it was a tumultuous time to start my legal practice. I was fortunate enough, though, to do a special program at my law school called the Pro Bono Scholars Program, so I was able to take the bar exam a little bit early in February of 2020, two weeks before the world shut down. And then I did a 12 week placement at the Center for Elder Law and Justice in their medical legal partnership, so working at a local hospital actually on site at the hospital, of course, the global most tumultuous time.
Speaker 2:Exactly so.
Speaker 2:I was running a hospital based program from home, but it was a very interesting way to start my legal practice and we'll always inform that, you know, trying to be flexible and trying to just do what we have to do to help the clients despite unforeseen circumstances.
Speaker 2:So after that I was fortunate enough to receive a postgraduate fellowship through the Borchardt Foundation Center on Law and Aging. So they're a national fellowship organization giving about two fellowship programs per year to new law school graduates to work in aging and law issues. So I had partnered with the Center for Elder Law and Justice to put forth a proposal to start a program to serve LGBTQ individuals and their civil legal needs, older adults in particular. So I started that program we called Aging with Pride, doing really simple estate planning for individuals, some name changes and really getting to know the local community and do that simple estate planning and then also working in tandem with our guardianship unit at the same time. So really I got to see a lot of different issues facing the older adult population here locally and gained some really great connections out of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and it's certainly a mirror of what happens nationally as well for the aging population. So what a tremendous experience to inform your trust in estates practice at the firm, absolutely, yes. Well, thank you so much for sharing that background. We really like to let the guests talk about themselves so the listeners can get to know them. So thank you so much. All right, so trust and estates, or, as we shorthand it around here, all the time T&E. So what is trust and estates law?
Speaker 2:Sure. So trusted estates law is really having conversations with clients about preserving their wealth and their assets Over a lifetime. You accumulate so much in savings and assets and all your hard-earned property and trying to think about what happens to that as you age and as you pass away. So really there's sort of two pieces. One is the planning, the advanced planning. Early in my career I started a blog post, right, and I called it advanced planning and I got corrected because it's not advanced necessarily, but it's in advance, right, it's in advance Right.
Speaker 2:Planning in advance, so really trying to have conversations with clients about what will happen to their property when they pass away or when they age and if they are not okay with certain defaults under the law which I'm going to touch upon, I'm sure, a little bit later. Really, the planning piece and working with professionals to get documents such as a trust or a will power of attorney, healthcare proxy in place and then actually administering those plans. So, whether that's the trust administration the day-to-day of paying out funds to beneficiaries according to the trust instrument, or, when folks pass away, actually administering the estate as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely All really important pieces of, like you said, advanced planning so that there's control for the individual and that it's not just left up to the default laws we have in the state. So, all right, can you explain a little bit then about what types of matters you've probably started this in what you just said in T&E practice that you handle here at Bond?
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah. So it's been really cool to see at Bond we really handle from start to finish the planning process and then the administration as well. So it's been very cool to see a lot of clients have been with the firm for years, for maybe generations even the family law firm, so to speak, which is sort of rare these days to find. And really the matters we work on are the planning piece. So we do those documents, so we will counsel clients about what their goals are, what's currently, you know, in their so-called estate, what assets they have and what their goals are relative to those pieces of property. We'll help draft those documents, execute them and explain them to the client. We'll be there, of course, throughout their lifetime to make changes.
Speaker 2:We always say you know major life decisions. Every five to 10 years, take a look at your estate plan, you know, not because we want the business, necessarily, but because we want them to be able to change over a lifetime. You know, a lot of times family structures change or goals change. So it's very important to be flexible and we don't want these documents to hurt anybody. You know we don't want them to be a weapon, certainly, we want them to just help. So we will, you know, work with clients throughout that process to draft and execute these documents, and then, typically when something happens, such as an individual passes away, we will be there to step in if necessary to then probate the document and actually administer the estate with the next of kin. So it's really a wonderful service to be able to help not only during a client's lifetime but after they pass away, to make sure that their wishes are honored. It's very rewarding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fantastic and I can see where it gives you like a long relationship with clients, which is also really a nice thing to be able to have. If we back up a bit, when you were in law school, did you really know trust and estates was the area you'd want to practice? So I actually entered law school. Did you really know trust and estates was the area you'd want to practice.
Speaker 2:So I actually entered law school because I wanted to help older adults at the end of their life. That was actually my goal, which is strange, I think, for lawyers sometimes to actually have a goal in mind. You know, I want to be a lawyer but I don't really know what I want to do. I sort of had that, you know, and in undergraduate I was volunteering with local senior centers and I would go just do trivia or serve meals and even paint the ladies nails at the, at the home. You know, I was working and I just got to know a lot of these, these women it was an assisted living for elderly women only, and a lot of them just had such amazing stories that I just wanted to be told and I, you know, were forgotten about, I felt. So that really motivated me to go to law school to help advocate for individuals like those that I was seeing at these nursing homes, and so I didn't really know how to do that.
Speaker 2:I always heard the buzzword trusts and estates, right, as, of course, trusts and estates really a lot of times affects older adults. I think that's the time that individuals think about that, right, as, of course, trust in estates really a lot of times affects older adults. I think that's the time that individuals think about that. Right, but it doesn't just affect older adults. I'm really on my soapbox everywhere I go that every person, no matter age, circumstance or station in life, needs to have advanced planning documents in place.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, it's interesting I have a friend who does this for people's pets, to make sure that your pet is taken care of right. There's so many aspects of our lives that we just don't think about that. Need a plan.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and it's very hard to think about this stuff. Right, you don't want to think about worst case scenario, and that's sort of our job, right, we have to think about worst case scenario and that's what, you know, many lawyers have to do. But in the trust and estates practice in particular, you have to have these pretty morbid conversations about the client's own mortality, and that's not an easy thing to do for anybody. Think about this, and not just clients, even my own family. You know you have to do a little teeth pulling to get them to talk about this, but it's important to do in advance, because I have seen the other side of the coin in my guardianship work when these plans are not in place, and it's very bleak. You know it's costly. The guardianship matters are costly and arduous and they really should be avoided at all costs, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, as you were describing, what drew you to the work Lawyers do, it's the stories. We are interested in the stories and telling the story in a way as the advocate that helps our client, and so I think it's great that early on, you figured out which of the stories you were most motivated by and found a way to help. It's really great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been really rewarding, certainly in both my professional capacity and my continued volunteer work as well um serving older adults that's great, and some pro bono volunteer work in there as well from time to time, when you get a chance, which we really appreciate, of course, um, so that must be what keeps you interested in the work, then the stories and helping people find, I think, that not only is it advanced planning and making sure that their wishes are sought through or followed through on, but also that they have the control and the dignity of their life's work being honored in the way it should.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And you know, every time we get a document in place, I say at the sort of very end okay, go take yourself out to dinner because you've done something really helpful for yourself, right, like this was really hard and I and I commend clients for doing this work and sitting through and trying to make the plans and it's really rewarding to be a part of that and be able to help preserve their legacy for the next generations.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. So there are all those positive parts, right, and oftentimes, though, people come to lawyers with problems, so that's not new to our profession. But it could be a dispute over a boundary or a payment or an employment matter, but in T&E practice, this can be filled with grief and family discord, or even personal disputes. Is that fair to say?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely really, usually at the estate administration proceedings, because these individuals, the families that are left behind the next of kin, are dealing with a host of emotions and heightened grief mixed with. You know, sometimes there's money passing out or certain property or personal belongings that can't be agreed upon, and so, you know, we try to have these plans as best as possible, but there inevitably will be disputes, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, is that difficult sometimes?
Speaker 2:It is difficult, you know, I think oftentimes I'm thinking that there's some dispute over personal property.
Speaker 2:It's more of a principle of a matter. It's not necessarily over the particular item, this particular piece of jewelry or painting, right, it's just a principle and there's something that has happened during someone's lifetime. You know, lives are long and relationships are complicated, so oftentimes we are the ones trying to mediate between this and doing that estate administration, along with the fiduciary that's appointed executor or administrator, and so we're in a unique position there as well to try and counsel not only our clients but beneficiaries and try to reassure them as well. Usually, if there's disputes, nobody's going to be fully happy, right, and that's, I think, the name of the game in the law. Usually, if there's a win, nobody's happy fully. No one gets fully what they wanted, right. But I think what I have seen so far is, if these documents are in place and the wishes are clear, it's much harder to fight what the underlying client wanted. And it has been nice to see, too, a lot of families really getting along and swimming upstream with each other.
Speaker 1:It must be really rewarding to help people in these really difficult emotional moments, because even if the plan is great and everyone's alongside it, there's been a loss.
Speaker 2:It's very rewarding to be able to help during this time and it's also good to have a nice team behind you of supportive staff and the firm to be able to sort of laugh through some of this and we hear about. You know a lot of issues are poured onto us by nature, which is necessary, but it's important, you know, to find ways to self-care as advocates too, so that we can be there during these emotional time periods.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I have been the recipient of, you know, the box of cookies you brought in when I've been in the Buffalo office. So even sometimes those are the little moments right, Just like being with colleagues, having a cookie, just taking that break away from what's so emotional.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, A sweet treat will solve a lot. I always say I agree.
Speaker 1:Well, so we mentioned this in the opening, but the episode is first airing during Pride Month, which is June. Is it okay if we turn to talk about some special considerations in T&E work that may come up for individuals in the LGBTQ plus community?
Speaker 2:Sure. So you know I'm not speaking from any point of expertise necessarily. You know I am a member of the LGBTQ plus community myself and, having worked with folks, specifically older adults, in my former position, I just saw a number of issues pop up and I think the main ones that I was always trying to work with clients on were the estate planning, advanced planning pieces. Really, in New York State law many of the listeners may or may not know this, but there is a default estate plan in New York State. So if you pass away without a will, without plans in place, certain people are going to inherit, and it's usually going to be, you know, your spouse or your children. If you don't have spouse or children, then it's going to go to sort of your next of kin, which are your parents or your siblings, and then from there it gets more complicated, right. But really I would speak with clients about this because I was finding that for the older adults in the LGBTQ plus community in particular, a lot of them were not married. They just never had this right or ability to during most of their adult life. So a lot of times I was seeing domestic partnerships, which does not come with inheritance rights. I was seeing domestic partnerships which does not come with inheritance rights, and so there's some very sad cases in which one partner got terminally ill and didn't have plans in place and we had to quickly move to do things to preserve the house for the surviving partner and so that money wouldn't go to the so-called family of origin I call it in the default estate plan. I was also finding that a lot of times there was families of choice formed by LGBTQ plus individuals. So a family of origin is really those that you are born into and hopefully have a good relationship with, but oftentimes for LGBTQ plus folks, that family of origin does not support that person's identity, so which is very sad and hopefully changing in this world but really the family of origin those people that are important to you and that you surround yourself with by choice becomes very important, and those individuals don't necessarily have those default rights, don't necessarily have those default rights. So it's really important to get those documents in place, Not only the will, the power of attorney which does not have a default in New York state law that's always important for anyone to get but really appointing, you know, trusted decision maker on that document as well. I was seeing.
Speaker 2:Also, you know, the name change piece was working with a lot of trans clients to do a name and gender marker change, and I actually had one particular case that will always stick out in my mind of this woman who had tried for probably the better part of a decade to get her name changed. But she kept going to lawyers and they kept saying I can't help you because it was a complicated, so-called complicated case where she had owed some child support and had some criminal background and so those were alleged barriers under the law. They were just things you have to report as part of the name change process. And so she finally got to me and within four months we had her legal name changed and had a whole court appearance and she just broke down in tears and it was just really something that I will always remember.
Speaker 2:But it was also really showed me that a lot of times there are barriers for accessing services for individuals like her and the LGBTQ plus community and oftentimes it's not clear where these you know individuals can go. That's going to be affirming I would hear from so many clients. You know, I don't know if I go to this lawyer, if they're going to accept me for my gender identity or sexual orientation Right, and so you know, I had a lot of trainings and continue to speak with my colleagues about how to make places affirming right. Whether that's showing a rainbow flag in your offices or, you know, going out in the community and distributing flyers or participating in pride-based events, I think it's all what I call laying breadcrumbs to show that this is an affirming place to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's say you have to build it for people to come. Right. That's the old line from a movie. Right, like you have to build it. Let people know that this is a place you can be.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Like a field of dreams. That's what we have to do, right. And so I think here at Bond, you know, I think definitely we are always looking for ways to do that in support of the LGBTQ plus community. And definitely in my world, in the trust and estates world, I'm trying to just be out there in our local community and say, you know, please come speak with us about that. So I continue to work with the Center for Elder Law and Justice, which the program I started has actually grown now.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been really lovely to see it grow and take off and I've been involved with them providing some joint presentations as well, but really not only supporting pride-based activities, but simple things like putting pronouns in your email signatures. That just sends a message to many individuals who are part of the LGBTQ plus community that this is maybe an affirming place that I can go seek services from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so important. Right, it's if people they can't see themselves, but if they see a welcome. Either way, this is a very personal thing to do is to advance plan for your life, as you mentioned before. Right, in this area in particular, all areas of the law, right, someone has something on the line, something at risk, but this is particularly very personal and the personal story is important those family of origin stories there may have been children from a previous relationship or marriage and all of these other pieces that have to be built in and a plan has to be made. And so you're right, like having an environment where people feel like I can come in as me. That's really important.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and it's our duties, I think, as lawyers, as basic duty for competence, to provide that affirming space for individuals.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we say we're, you know, we take that little oath that says we'll uphold the Constitution of the United States and the state of New York. That little thing you know, but it's an important piece when we're admitted to practice and that means you know working with all kinds, absolutely. So often in T&E work, as we've talked about a bunch, it's about planning. Are there certain considerations for LGBTQ older adults in those aging and long-term care settings?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Unfortunately, I think there's a trend that when individuals do age to the point that they have to go into these long-term care settings, many LGBTQ plus folks sort of forced back into the closet because, you know they don't feel that they individual working at the particular facility. There's just not enough resources or training about LGBTQ plus issues. So I've gotten calls from social workers at facilities saying you know this person is quote unquote cross-dressing. What do I do? And said no, let them dress how they want. Right, like simple things. But I hear this from many of my clients that they're concerned about aging and what that looks like for them. I would love to see an LGBTQ plus specific long-term care setting.
Speaker 1:I think there's some work on that by certain groups like SAGE.
Speaker 2:Absolutely SAGE the leaders here in New York. Certainly I would love to see a local facility as well and hear that there's a great need for that. Of course, there's barriers attached to that, but I think really having advocates working in the LGBTQ plus aging and law space is really important. To have trainings to these long-term care facilities, to have those pride-based organizations or even lawyers talking with clients about what these LGBTQ plus considerations are and how we can provide these affirming spaces.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Are there other resources people should know about, particularly in the Buffalo community, since that's your hometown, sure?
Speaker 2:So the Pride Center of Western New York is always a great resource through Evergreen Health.
Speaker 2:I also serve on the board of directors for a group called Niagara Pride, serving Niagara County, new York, and we provide educational, social programming and just trying to provide affirming spaces for individuals where they work, play and live Certainly the Center for Elder Law and Justice and providing some services, you know, relative to the LGBTQ plus community, we'd like to think, of course, bond is here for all a host of legal matters, right and affirming, particularly in the Trust and Estates group. You know, I think, really those pride based organizations throughout communities, though, are really important. They're the spaces where you can not only learn from LGBTQ plus individuals but also get tips about how to be affirming. I know, when I first started this work, I needed my own training, certain concepts and vocabulary, and you know the acronyms that are constantly evolving and changing right, and I think there's so much discomfort in this space because there's just a lack of information. So I think the more information that we can have and get from those experts in the field, the better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think educating ourselves is a key component to all of it, because we all come at everything from our own personal vantage point right, so that's it's important. You mentioned this, you know, and we've talked a little bit about it, but many people hear estate planning and trust work and they assume it's only for extremely wealthy individuals. But planning is important for all people in all communities and identities, isn't it? I mean, I'm hearing you say that health, identity, well-being all of those are part of that advanced planning, aren't they?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, you know, I think this planning ahead should be done by everybody. I think, like I said earlier, every person should have a power of attorney, someone that they trust, of course, because if there's a non-trustworthy person serving in this role, then that is a problem for other aspects. But, absolutely, regardless of wealth, identity, health, these individuals you know, all individuals should have these documents in place. You know, even age-related. I know I personally have my documents, you know, in place. I'm hopeful to live many, many, many more years and I think, a lot of times, individuals think that they're giving away rights by signing these documents or putting something into the universe. Right, that something's going to happen to them. But I think, really, what I want to impress upon people in my practice and in here is that if you don't make these plans, it's going to just complicate things for your own personal finances, for those loved ones and those people around you. So, really, this not only helps you personally you benefit from from this planning, but it also benefits those that you're going to leave behind as well.
Speaker 1:It gives you autonomy and security. Yeah well, thank you so much, chris. Thanks for joining the podcast today. I'm excited that we had the chance to speak on these important issues and I know producer Kate and I both hope that you will come back and join us again soon. Thank you so much for your time, Kim.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm or have a question for a future topic, please email us at legallybond at bskcom. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well.
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