Legally Bond
Legally Bond
Summer Fun Series - An Interview with Chip Grieco
In this Summer Fun Series episode of Legally Bond, Kim talks with Bond attorney Chip Grieco, co-chair of the hospitality and tourism practice. Chip shares how environmental law led him to liquor licensing, and what hospitality businesses need to know about Section 111-A of New York’s Alcohol Beverage Control Act when applying for outdoor dining permits.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond, Chetik and King. I'm your host, Kim Wolf-Price. Well, it's summertime here in the Northeast, a time for getting outside and, for many of us, a chance to visit local businesses, museums, historic sites and more. And today is the second episode in our special summer series of the podcast. Our second guest is Chip Grieco. Chip is a member in our Buffalo office. He practices environmental law and also co-chair of the Farm to Hospitality and Tourism Industry Work Group. Welcome to the podcast, Chip, or should I say welcome back to the summer series.
Speaker 2:Thank you, happy to join.
Speaker 1:Terrific. Well, thank you so much. And, as I alluded to, you joined the podcast last on a summer fun series that was hosted by another member of the firm, andy Bobrek, to discuss how the pandemic had affected the hospitality industry. So, as co-chair of that practice group, we're excited to have you back to discuss updates since then and the intersection between your hospitality and environmental practices. All right, but before we get into that conversation, it's always good for our listeners to know who they're talking to. So if you wouldn't mind, if you could give the listeners a quick reminder of your background whatever you want to share where you grew up family law, school, undergrad whatever you'd like to share with the listeners.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I work out of our Buffalo office and I am a Buffalo native. I was born here. I actually did move around various parts of the country when I was growing up, but I have been back in Buffalo since high school, except for when I was way at college and graduate school for about six years combined but came back for law school and I've been here ever since and in terms of my live in the city of Buffalo. But in terms of my practice, I do, as you mentioned, a lot of environmental law. I also do a lot of land use and municipal work and have developed this sort of sub-practice in liquor licensing, which obviously services a lot of tourism and hospitality clients. So I work with breweries, distilleries, restaurants, bars, theme parks, colleges and universities that also have hospitality aspects.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. I mean I think, having practiced a little bit of environmental law for a couple of years, I can see how those actually come into play right, because there are so many issues that hospitality and tourism would have to. There are some overlap, but they're both so regulated. Is that part of what the crossover is?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, I will say the way I sort of developed my alcohol licensing practice was as actually a direct result of my environmental practice, but sort of accidentally it was we were helping. This is 11 years ago. I think it was 12 years ago, a startup microbrewery that was just starting to explode in New York state was opening their first brewery, literally in a garage space in the city of Buffalo tiny little, one barrel system. They encountered an environmental issue. They discovered a tank, an old, abandoned petroleum tank.
Speaker 2:They needed to report to DEC, and that's how I got involved working with that client. I actually wasn't doing liquor licensing at the time. One of the other attorneys at the firm was, but when that attorney left the firm I had already been working with this client and so I started doing their liquor licensing and now I'm doing liquor licensing for many clients all across New York state. But yes, you're right, one of the good fits between counseling clients on environmental issues and liquor licensing issues is the extent of regulation. They're both very highly regulated areas, so that's helped me transition into the alcohol licensing world without too much difficulty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess our listeners might not know, but you know there's legal practice has a lot of layers, but that regulatory piece is almost like a sub-language within all the other languages that we learn. Yes, for sure, yes, and you've mentioned Buffalo and that you're Buffalo native. So this comes up a lot on the podcast. So I'm going to assume that a Bills fan and training camp is starting and things like that, yes, all very exciting.
Speaker 2:We're all very excited about the Bills here. Even my wife, who's a New Jersey native and resisted, I think, for a long time, being interested in football, particularly the Buffalo Bills, has even been swept up a bit. She actually now has her own Bills swag.
Speaker 1:Well, you can tell her that I have joined her in that I've been fully converted and I have my own Bill Swagg now. All right, so getting back to our summer series, are there any recent legal developments or enforcement trends that breweries, restaurants, other tourism should be aware of this summer?
Speaker 2:I mean in terms of enforcement trends.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say I've particularly noticed any real trends on the enforcement front, but there have been a few significant regulatory changes that companies, businesses that operate in this space should be aware of, particularly with respect to summer and the issue of outdoor dining to the extent that involves the service of alcohol, because there was as many businesses really started to expand outside as part of the COVID pandemic, really become a permanent part of many of those the way those businesses operate, and obviously during the summer in particular there's a desire to do that. And during COVID the state developed some sort of emergency rules for that. That a lot of businesses took advantage of and you certainly see this a lot down in New York City. It got a lot of attention, but really across the state, because that was the ability to continue to operate and to expand was to use outdoor spaces. But so the state has sort of had a series of rules ever since COVID to sort of govern that. And most recently I mean now it's a little well a little over a year ago the Alcohol Beverage Control Act, the liquor law in New York State, the ABC law, was amended to add a provision, section 111A, that specifically governs what you need to do to occupy. Now this is specifically municipal space, contiguous or non-contiguous municipal space for purposes of operating. You know, think of a sidewalk cafe is your most typical example. So there's now a whole new application process for that that has gone into effect.
Speaker 2:So what's important for businesses to know is, even if they have been operating in outdoor space again, this is specific to municipal space they need to make sure they're in compliance with the new Section 111A and the application process that is involved there.
Speaker 2:So it's not necessarily a particularly onerous application process, but it is a process that you need to go through to be in compliance and and you know, there's some differences with that application, with the other applications that businesses who have alcohol licenses may, you know, not be familiar with.
Speaker 2:You know, for instance, a couple years ago SLA removed the requirement to actually tell them where exactly all your tables and chairs were going to be, which was a welcome change, sort of streamlining the process. But if you're occupying municipal space now, you actually still have to do that, so it's different. So for your indoor space, you don't have to tell them, but if you're going to occupy some municipal space for a sidewalk fa, you still do need to show where all your tables and chairs are, and you have to tell them, show them, you have to prove to them. You have workers compensation insurance and general liability insurance, which, again a couple years ago sla eliminated the requirement to provide proof of workers' compensation insurance for a regular license. So people do need to realize that if they're occupying municipal space, some of those things that SLA did to streamline things a couple of years ago do not apply to that municipal space.
Speaker 1:And that's an issue, because a lot of people in New York City certainly, but other cities as well, Syracuse certainly, it's the street, they're actually in the street.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so this is exactly what this process has been to. And, by the way, it's also important to note that, just because this Section 111A was added to codify a process to allow you to do that, the city, the municipality, still has to allow you to do it. I mean, part of that process is you need to get the permit Right. It still needs to be permitted. Matter of fact, that's part of the application process with SLA is to give proof that you do have the approval to do that, and the municipality does not need to give you that approval. So that's another angle. And another thing that businesses need to keep in mind is the local land use approvals that may be required to either occupy municipal space a sidewalk most typically or even if you're just doing it on your own space that you control, there still may be land use approvals necessary for your site plan and other things like that. So there's in addition to making sure you're complying with the SLA requirements, businesses need to make sure they have a good handle on the local municipalities' land use requirements for outdoor dining, whether on municipal space or not on municipal space.
Speaker 2:The other thing I think I should probably stress is again, although this new 111A is specific to municipal space businesses that want to expand outdoors or operate seasonally outdoors. Even if it's on space they control. On private property they control. They still need SLA approval to do that. Any expansion or alteration of a premises requires an alteration application and approval of SLA. It's just there's not this separate municipal application that is now required, it's just a standard alteration application, standard alteration application.
Speaker 2:But bottom line is if you're operating getting back to your point from earlier, how heavily regulated this is you're making any sort of changes in the footprint of your operations or the scope of your operations and you're serving alcohol, you're going to need to file an application with SLA to do that. And if you're going to add on a bar outdoors which you can do on private space, not on municipal space you're also going to need to file an additional bar application and pay an additional fee for that bar. So there's a lot to take into account. Everybody loves I think these outdoor spaces and dining outdoors is extremely popular and I think it's good for businesses that do that. But there's a few hoops to jump. I won't say a lot, but there's a few hoops to jump through that do that, but there's a few hoops to jump.
Speaker 1:I sure won't say a lot, but there's a few hoops to jump through, yeah, and people can't think it's like, oh, I have my state liquor authority, my SLA license, like this is okay, I'm good for life, it's just, I'm done. No, as the regulations change as you want to expand and I'd imagine, if you wanted to expand, what does your lease say about that outdoor space? What are the noise ordinances, right? All that comes into play too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely for sure All of that, and that's why it's important yes, absolutely. You need to review your lease, you need to talk to your insurance broker to make sure you're covered for those sorts of things and, as I said, to reiterate, you do need SLA approval to basically make any significant changes in the way that your business is operating in terms of its footprint, or where people are sitting or consuming alcoholic beverages.
Speaker 1:I was going to say. My next question was are there common things that you see hospitality businesses do when launching seasonal operations like beer gardens or rooftop? I think maybe we previewed this a bit. Are there things they do that can cause issues or delays or make them have to pull back? Is this some of what that is?
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean things they can do. First of all are doing it without permission can be a problem, and that happens. The other thing I would just say is you need to plan ahead. It takes time to get these approvals. It could take, you know, it could vary from municipality to municipality in terms of the municipal land use approvals you might need. But you need to make sure you understand what approvals are needed and that can be a little bit complicated too when you start getting in looking at zoning laws and things like that.
Speaker 2:But also make sure that you're planning ahead on the liquor side, because the SLA side, because one of the requirements is that you provide the local municipality. It's built right into the ABC law that when you submit these applications you need to provide the municipality with 30 days notice before you can do that. So you need to build that into your plans. And then you need to build the SLA processing times into your plans, and that has been maddeningly unpredictable as of late there's been a lot of turnover at the agency.
Speaker 2:I think they're trying their best to do what they're doing, but I actually recently I represent a small, wonderful brewery down in Westchester County that did submit an alteration application that included reconfiguring their outdoor beer garden as well as some interior renovations. We got our approval on that, I want to say, in 30 to 45 days. It was wonderful, it just went through no problem. That's unusual, and so, on the other hand, I have many other applications of clients that I work with that it takes much, much longer and, as I said, it's really just unpredictable. So you've got to plan ahead. Assume it's going to take up to three months or maybe more to get these approvals.
Speaker 1:So if you really did, the time to make your plans to expand into an outdoor space is during the winter or before, not on June 1st season up here, you have to get planning in advance for sure, and so, like the alcohol and beverage control law, the state liquor authority, those are all pieces of this, and I know when. Hospitality and businesses, what would you recommend they do when they want to balance this desire for creative summer experiences? Maybe it's pop-up events, live music, changing their footprint in some way? What do they need to do with the? You just gave us a little preview with the legal need for predictability and compliance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I do think it's just again planning ahead, making sure you understand all the requirements and, frankly, you know, I think the best way to do that is to consult an experienced attorney on these issues who can help navigate that.
Speaker 2:As I said, the ABC law is not an easy thing to navigate. Local land use laws are often not very easy to navigate. You know, and there are again back to the point that you raised at the very beginning how highly regulated this area is, some things you cannot do. So, as I said, I think the state tries to be as flexible as it can be within the confines of a pretty clunky statute the ABC law. That's pretty old. There is an effort, by the way, to sort of update the ABC law, but no real progress has been made on that yet. But the issue is that it is a difficult, highly regulated and somewhat confusing area. There's a lot of rules and you don't want to invest a lot of time and money planning on something, one that's either not going to work or is not going to work on your timeline.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I've noticed a lot of coffee shops adding beer in one, and then outdoor space, and the outdoor space I'm thinking of one place in particular. It's just now actually being built. So as consumers, as customers, we have to be a little patient, right? Because even the best plans, the delays can be not on the side of the business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again, as I mentioned earlier, just it is unfortunately unpredictable in terms of how quickly or not quickly SLA is going to process your application, and I wish I could say I knew how to cure that problem. I don't other than to say plan for the worst case scenario, which is months in terms of getting your application in yeah, and then maybe, if we have a gorgeous april day, you can, you know, use your patio right, you planned ahead.
Speaker 1:So I I think that sort of to. I mean ask this in a wrap-up question any expansion, any service change, any footprint, change new offering. If you have a state liquor authority license, really you should run it past an attorney to protect your business. Is that fair to say?
Speaker 2:That is absolutely fair to say. In my experience, I mean, sometimes I've come in after the fact you know where somebody has now run into a problem and, frankly, it's harder at that point after you've sort of gone down a wrong path or run into a roadblock or gotten yourself in trouble for doing something that you weren't allowed to do. So it oftentimes is more efficient to consult an attorney up front. Make sure that you've got a clear path forward to get where you're trying to get to, because most times you'll be able to get there, but there are a lot of regulations that need to be considered. So having that roadmap in place before you invest a lot of time and money, potentially going down the wrong route, will in the long run, get you where you need to be quicker and cheaper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's terrific. Well, thanks so much, chip, for joining us. I really do hope you'll come back and join us for an episode focusing on other aspects of your law practice or your pro bono work, which I know you also do.
Speaker 2:So thanks, for joining us. All right, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legallybond at bskcom. Also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well.
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