An Interview with Mary Fitzpatrick, Attorney Professional Development

In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Mary Fitzpatrick, Bond’s director of attorney professional development, about how new associates can build trust, navigate uncertainty and grow their careers through curiosity, strong communication and intentional professional development. They also discuss the traits that help lawyers achieve long-term success, including emotional intelligence, reliability and a willingness to embrace new opportunities.

Transcript

Welcome And Why This Matters

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Channikin King. I'm your host, Kim Wolf Price. Today I'm joined by someone who plays a critical role in helping Bond's attorneys build successful and fulfilling careers. Mary Fitzpatrick, the director of attorney professional development here at Bond. Mary works closely with attorneys across the firm on professional growth, training, mentoring, career development, and helping lawyers navigate the many transitions that occur throughout their careers. She oversees our legal recruiting team as well. Hey Mary, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me, Kim. We're excited to have you join us. Well, as we approach the arrival of a new class of associates this fall, I asked Mary to join us to talk about what young lawyers should be focusing on early in their careers, common challenges new attorneys face, and why professional development should really be a deliberate and ongoing part of every lawyer's career throughout their entire career. Everyone, public service announcement, it's not something that's limited to CLE requirements. So, does that work for our talk today, Mary?

SPEAKER_03 1:13

That sounds terrific. Thank you, and thank you for the public service announcement. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

I'm trying to help, however, I can. All

Mary’s Path Into The Law

SPEAKER_02 1:22

right. So before we dive into your advice for attorneys, it's a tradition on the podcast to ask our guests to talk a little bit about themselves. We think it helps the listeners get to know our guests better. And well, frankly, I'm going to be honest, producer Kate and I really like this part as well. So, Mary, will you share a bit about your background? And then we'll talk hopefully a little bit about what led you from legal practice to a career focused on attorney professional development. So up to you. Share where you grew up, went to school, family, or whatever other background you want to share.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Well, thank you for that. Thanks for the invitation. So I guess maybe it's easiest to just start with where I went to college and then law school. Um, so I went to Binghamton University. Uh although when I went to Binghamton, it was called SUNY Binghamton, right? Not Binghamton University. Not bang, not bing. There was no bang. And we were not the bear cats, but alas, that that's a story for a future time. A story for a future time. A different time. From Binghamton, then I went directly to law school. I went to Brooklyn Law School, where I stayed after and practiced in Manhattan for about six years after law school. So on the personal side of things, I am the youngest of six. My parents were immigrants from Ireland. So I'm a first-generation American, first generation law student, and first generation attorney in my family.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Yeah, we have that part in common, not the Irish part, but the first generation. Yeah, it's a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

It is, it's definitely something that I've grown to appreciate and recognize a little bit later in life, to sort of think about how that may have impacted some of my choices and my decisions in my career.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Yeah, that makes sense, definitely. So, what type of law did you practice in in Manhattan after law school?

SPEAKER_03 3:22

I practice a very narrow area of commercial litigation that was specifically focused on representing commercial landlords in disputes. So really niche, I would say. And I focused in very early in my career from the jump.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Very cool. All right. So I know this part, but I'm gonna ask anyway. So you made the switch from practicing to working at law schools. Um, can you talk a little bit about that career path where you started and um what intrigued you maybe about making

Leaving Practice For Career Coaching

SPEAKER_02 3:56

that switch?

SPEAKER_03 3:58

It's such a good question. And I've really tried to think about that. Uh, you know, I think a very large part of that decision was really personal to what I find to be rewarding. Yeah. And and something that I've always, I guess, been pretty good at, or at least I've been told I'm good at, is providing guidance and support.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

That is just good at that, listeners. I'd like to confirm.

unknown 4:30

Thank you for that, Ken.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

So when I saw the opportunity to move from the practice of law into a role at Brooklyn Law School in the career center that would allow me to serve as more of a guide and counselor and wear that hat, I thought it would be a really good fit. And I was right. I was right. And one of the things that I realized when I was at the law school is that I tried to be the person to students who I really needed when I was a student.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

And so that's how I landed up leaving practice and going to academia.

unknown 5:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

And you were did you start at Brooklyn and then move to Albany?

SPEAKER_03 5:13

Yeah, that's right. So I started at Brooklyn and I think I was there for about seven, I always say seven or eight years, give or take a maternity leave. And then joined Albany Law School in 2015. And that position allowed me to lead the office at Albany Law School, which was really rewarding because I got to think about what my vision for the office would be. And I worked with amazing people. And so I stayed there for about 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

And if anyone, you know, has listened to more than one episode, practice in Manhattan, went to work in a law school, you can figure out how Mary and I may have crossed paths somewhere along the way. Well, and then last year I did my darndest to convince you to sort of marry those two things of right, being that guide and law firm life, and to bring you back over to private practice. So, um, what attracted you to working with lawyers and law firms on professional development?

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Well, first of all, thank you. Um, because it really is my privilege to be here at Bond. It's been a really incredible transition. Um, I think one of the things that intrigued me the most was the opportunity to support lawyers in practice as a really meaningful, impactful way to support growth beyond the academy, right? There's there's so much that we do in the academy to prepare lawyers for practice, but then to come to Bond specifically and be available to see how we can implement some of the things that we've been working on in the law school side of the house and support and have impact um was just too good to pass up. And I am very grateful and happy with my decision.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

That's terrific. And I I really appreciate that. And I'm so glad that you um said yes when we asked you to join us, uh, because there really you can see the transition in your work of you know having academically studied some of these topics and then putting them into place, right? Here and growing and developing that. And really, lawyers at all stages from summer law clerks to attorneys transitioning to retirement, those are all your um your folks. And in the end, that all helps not only them to be happier about being lawyers and to be more satisfied, but the clients because they get better lawyers.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I mean, I and I know this might be a question that you ask me later on. So it's okay, go you're making me think about sort of the idea of having a ripple effect, right? So feeling supported in your career decisions and feeling supported at work is so incredibly important in today's day and age where we get so much value out of the work that we do and we spend so much time in our working environments. So it's really fun to think about how supporting someone at work leads to you know them supporting their family and their family supporting their community and this much larger, you know, the pebble in the pond, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Effect absolutely. And I've always thought working with in diversity initiatives and professional development and well-being, right? Those things all cross over so much. Bringing your whole self to work allows you the freedom to grow in your role and feeling supported, and then as a person, right? And make choices what boards you might want to be on or community service you might want to do. So I agree with you. It's a really a ripple effect for sure.

unknown 9:11

All right.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

So I'm gonna ask you this then.

Getting Comfortable With Uncertainty

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Was there a particular mentor experience or lesson that sort of shaped your philosophy on professional development? Or has it been a journey for you?

SPEAKER_03 9:23

I would say, you know, I think it has been a journey for me. I would say the experience that has had the most impact is probably getting comfortable with not knowing, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, not right.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

That that is the law, totally. It is. It's that getting comfortable with not knowing if something's gonna be the perfect choice, but understanding that it's one of many possibilities, and and being able to say yes before you feel entirely ready. Right. Those are now I'm sure that some very wise mentor taught me these things, and I'm not giving proper attribution right now, but those are the things that I think have have been mindsets that I've internalized that have been really helpful to me as I approach professional development.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Yeah, that growth mindset is just so important. And it's hard for lawyers, right, who come from a fixed mindset of likely being the A student who don't want to take a chance because what if I'm wrong? And that's the whole thing about law practice, right? There are people arguing both sides of this. That's how that's how we do this. That's the whole you know, adversarial system.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

100%. I couldn't agree with you more. And I and I think one of the things that has probably surprised me the most coming back to practice is there is a little bit of a need to grow tolerance around the fact that when you are setting out to solve really complex problems for clients, there's going to be uncertainty. The answer may not be perfectly clear, at least not at first, right? And there are so many contingencies that come into play that I think that that growing that tolerance for uncertainty is a really big part of attorney professional development.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

So true. And for a while, a former dean at um Syracuse Law and I talked about trying to teach a seminar on that. Like, how do you how do you teach that?

SPEAKER_03 11:39

Like, how do you teach that? Well, I I don't know, right? Exactly. It's so important. And then I don't know how you teach it, but I can see it, I can see it here at the firm as people are developing it. So I recognize it when I see it. Not sure how to teach it yet.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah, I think I think you are doing it, but I think this is a great place to kick off our talk about new lawyers for a bit.

First Year Surprises For New Associates

SPEAKER_02 12:03

So every year, as happens at the MLA 200 firms and other places, a new group of associates enters the profession in the fall, usually September or October after the bar exam and after giving them a few minutes to breathe again. So it's a really exciting time when they come into the firm. But it can for all of us, and I'm sure it's exciting for them, but it can also be really overwhelming as they're beginning their careers in law practice. And for some of them, their first careers ever. So, what do you think maybe are some of the biggest surprises new associates encounter during their first year of practice?

SPEAKER_03 12:39

That is a great question. I think maybe it goes back to the idea that lawyers don't always already have all the answers.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Right. And a lot of times the assignments that you are given as a brand new associate are those really tough assignments that nobody actually knows the answer to. Right. The what if. The what if, exactly. It's being prepared for everything and anything. And so I think that maybe is a little surprising and challenging to brand new associates who come in really energized to be able to find the answer, solve the problem, and who sometimes can feel a little not discouraged, but but maybe just uncomfortable around the fact that the answer isn't so clear. And sometimes what they're providing, it isn't exactly what the assigning member may be looking for.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

No, that's very that's a very good point. And I so I I guess the next question then is how can they balance that pressure to perform both internally, right, and externally with the reality that they are still learning and they have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Yeah, I think the key is building trusting relationships. I think the key to coping through that pressure is making sure that you're working on getting to know the people you're working with, building that trust so you are comfortable as a new associate going to someone with more experience and also feeling safe enough to say, I really don't know the answer in this case. I need some help. I think all of that can be useful and supportive to to new associates when they start.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

Makes sense, and that's why it's so important for supervising attorneys and the rest of us at firms to create that space for psychological safety so they can do this.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

So important. It's so important, you know. And the other the other thing, and I this is something that comes with time, is just building the competency trust as a new attorney, right? Making sure that the work that you're doing is the best work that you can do. And from there, building relationships with people who recognize your potential, right? You don't come in, you don't come in knowing everything. Nobody does, but but you're hired for your potential. And and we all believe that the new attorneys we hire have amazing potential, otherwise, they wouldn't be joining us.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

It's so true. And then you and I both have talked to them at different times about you have the ability to be responsive, like right, like you there's things you can show right away, like that that show up. Do you want to talk about some of those things that they can do right away?

Trust, Communication, And Controlling Controllables

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Absolutely, right? It's controlling the controllables, yes, right? The controllable and and for look, for example, being really thoughtful about sending communication, email communication, making sure that that is a professional tone. Following through a simple, even the simplest things, right? So if I say I'm going to do something like, I don't know, call you at two tomorrow, I'm gonna call you at two tomorrow because that means that I'm a reliable person. I think those small things, communication, reliability, consistency, showing up, keeping your door open, being positive about being in the space can be hugely impactful, right? Being approachable, I think is really important. I think if you can be open and show that you're open to having conversations and meeting people, it goes a really long way.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Absolutely. And is curiosity part of that too?

SPEAKER_03 16:52

Oh, you know it. Absolutely. I mean, I think curiosity is so incredibly important to all of professional development. If you think about professional development as really just lifelong learning, right? So anything that you can become curious about, ask questions about, show interest is going to be so important to building your knowledge base, right? But also showing how engaged you are.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

And that's such an important piece to get people to come back to give you the second assignment, right? You do the first assignment, you're reliable, you check for typos, you do all of those important things, you're on time and you're curious and you ask follow-up questions. And that's how you get the second assignment from that person. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

100%. It shows it shows the person that you are engaged.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Yeah, so important. So I'm gonna talk some definitions because you know lawyers love a good, what's a definition?

Professional Development Beyond CLE

SPEAKER_02 17:57

But when when lawyers hear the phrase professional development, many immediately think about continuing legal education or CLA credits, as we call them. But that's just what we need to keep our licenses, right? Those are requirements from the New York State, the Office of Court Administration, the New York State Courts. How do you define professional development?

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Yeah, it's a great question. And you know, this is something that I ask all of our associates when I when I meet with them, when we do our associate lunches, I often start out with that question, right? What does professional development mean to you? And I have to say the answers have been phenomenal, not surprised. But I think professional development is investing in yourself as a professional, being reflective and thinking about the career that you want, right, that aligns with your individual values, that allows you to reach your full potential. And then planning what are the professional steps, what are the skills, what's the knowledge, who are the people that I need to work on in order to get where I want to go. That's professional development, right? The CLEs are the bare minimum, and they're great. And I'm so glad that New York State requires them. I think it's really important for lawyers, particularly lawyers, to stay current. But that's the bare minimum. Professional development is so much more.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

It's really a strategic part of career management, really more less a compliance, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 19:39

100%. And the strategic piece of that is really where that brings to bear the self-reflection.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

You can't be strategic unless you're first starting with, okay, where do I want to be? What are my goals? Um, and then piecing together what the skills and knowledge base is that you need to get there.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Yeah, I always say there's people who um say, you know, lawyers aren't happy, don't go to law school, all of that. There are people who let their career happen to them.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Absolutely. Right?

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. If you if you give over that control, it's going to be very different. So then why is it? Is that part of why it's important for attorneys to actively manage their own professional development rather than like waiting for opportunities to come to them?

SPEAKER_03 20:30

100%. I mean, I can't think when I think of the most successful and happy attorneys who I know, they're people who are truly energized by the career because they've made choices that allow them to focus on the areas of practice that they're most interested in, right? They're people who have been thoughtful about choosing a direction and moving in that direction, even if it takes a long time. And it does, right? Careers are long, it really does. Yes. Right. Careers are long and they are seldom straight. They are much more windy, and you know, there are ups and downs. But I think being strategic about where you see yourself in the future allows you to straighten out and reach those goals.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

I couldn't agree more. It's absolutely a great way to put it. Like, and it's it's not a straight line, and you're not going to have your dream job 15 minutes after graduation. If you do, holy cow, write a book. But um call us, come on the podcast. But absolutely. But it is, right? It is, and you take, but you can take learning, you can learn from each part of it. If you start out in one area of practice and you're really trying to get to another, and so you're doing bar association work to get there. Or volunteering, take something from each part of that.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Take something from absolute. And also, you know, perspective taking is so important when it comes to career growth. We learn from all aspects of our lives, and we learn from everyone in our lives if we are paying attention. And so, yeah, that perspective taking can be so impactful when you're thinking about what you want to do next.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Absolutely. Absolutely.

What Successful Lawyers Do Differently

SPEAKER_02 22:33

So, are there things besides that perspective taking that most successful attorneys have in common from a professional development perspective?

SPEAKER_03 22:42

I think there are. The first thing I'm going to say is thoughtfulness. Thoughtfulness. I mean, really foundationally, kind, thoughtful people tend, in my opinion, tend to be really successful. When I think about some of the lawyers who I really admire the most, and I think about their characteristics, they're calm, they're not reactive, they're thoughtful, they're planners, they're capable of holding multiple different perspectives, right? That could be true at the same time. And then they also couple that sort of those personality or or traits with the foundational control the controllables sort of attitude that we talked about before, right? They're the people who are responsive, responsive, reliable, consistent, and truly interested in the work that they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah, that's absolutely right. Is that also then part of um the difference between being technically excellent and being professionally successful?

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean I think there are many technical skills that lawyers have to do really, really well. The most successful lawyers are the lawyers who can couple that and also demonstrate all of the emotional intelligence that is required of a career that is so human-centric.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

So that's the really that is sort of the perfect marriage of technical skill and emotional intelligence that allows for exponential professional growth and success.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

And I think for those listening, you don't have to be great at everything. You may be an exceptional mentor. You technically, okay, lawyers have, we have some technical requirements on us, right? But you could be the person who mentors and chains the associates, or you could be the person who hustles and gets all the new clients, or you could be the person who's absolutely excellent at firm finances and runs one of those committees. You can find your place in a bigger ecosystem as you advance, right? And find that other thing you love about what we call firm service.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, you you often learn a lot about yourself through those firm service activities. And I have found in my own sort of professional growth that sometimes, you know, even when I don't want to say yes to something, right? It is that act of saying yes and doing the extra thing that has allowed me to learn something new about myself, right? Something that I never thought I was necessarily interested in. But turns out, you know what, this was actually a really good experience. And the exposure is so worthwhile.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Right. And even if it's not a thing you do every time, because just because we're good at it doesn't mean we always have to do it. At least you've had that experience.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

I'm trying to take my own advice. I don't uh I like that. Uh, you let me know when you take that advice. I'll let you know as soon as possible.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

All right.

Speed Round, Closing, And Listener Qs

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Well, I really appreciate all this. There's so many good things, and we could talk for hours. I want to do like, what do you think about a quick QA? We haven't done this on the podcast where I ask you some questions and you give me a few like quick answers.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

Okay, I'll try.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

All right, let's do it. All right, best career advice you've ever received. Say yes. I love it. Okay. One skill every attorney should develop listening skills. Excellent. Two ears, one mouth. Most underrated professional skill. Listening skills.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

I do like that. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Um your favorite way to continue learning.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Podcasts. I am a podcast junkie.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Obviously, you're on a podcast right now. It's me. Um, a book, podcast, or resource you'd recommend to young lawyers.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Okay, so this one is not necessarily based around the law. It's really a leadership podcast. Yeah. But it is Adam Grant Rethinking. And I just, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

That's fantastic. Okay. And one word that describes a successful career.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Aligned.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

That's a good one. Aligns with your values, aligns with what you want to do every day. I love it. Very good. Well, we're going to tell Andrew Rodby. It's one of his favorite words. He's our Oh, really? Yeah. He used that's good. All right. That's so Andrew's our chief people officer, and the two of them work very well together to help us. I'm just going to team some aligned now. Yes, you should. And he'll be like, okay, yes, we are, Mary. Well, I love that. I love the speed round. Thanks for being game for that. And thanks, Mary, for joining Bond. And thanks also for joining today and sharing your insights on professional development and building a successful legal career.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Thank you very much, Kim. I very much appreciated our conversation.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Me too. So professional growth isn't something that happens by accident. You've learned more about that today. And like any other aspect of a legal career, it benefits from planning, intention, and then willingness to keep learning and say yes, be aligned. Whether you're a brand new associate or a seasoned practitioner, investing in your own development is one of the best investments you can make. I'm thrilled, Mary, that you're a bond. And I look forward to having you back on the podcast for a future conversation.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

Thank you very much, Kim.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm, have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legally bond at bsk.com. Also, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Bond Shenick and King has prepared this communication to present only general information. This is not intended as legal advice, nor should you consider it as such. You should not act or decline to act based upon the contents. While we try to make sure that the information is complete and accurate, laws can change quickly. You should always formally engage a lawyer of your choosing before taking actions which have legal consequences. For information about our communication, firm, practice areas, and attorneys, visit our website, bsk.com. This is attorney advertising.